Putting my head about the parapet

Does it matter what others think of them, if they think they’re doing the right thing for their own family? They shouldn’t be seeking validation from other people.

And surely most people, mothers and fathers, have to go out to work? It was never an option for my Dh to not work, nor any of my friends.

Who values them less though? Or is they themselves who feel somehow lesser?

And those who go to work for financial reasons don't have a choice.

I know that a lot of mothers have to work whether for financial need or their own sanity. My own mam did at a time when most of my friends had mams who didn't. I just feel it's sad that those who choose and can stay at home with their children are somehow less valued.

A key factor is the price of housing (whether rented or purchased) This is now astronomical, whereas my parents were able to start buying a terrace house in the 1930s, on my father's
low wage. My mother never went out to work, but cooked from scratch and grew her own vegetables in the garden.

It’s down to finances, and very often down to the cost of housing - whether mortgage or rent - being relatively so much higher than a few decades ago.

My DM didn’t go back to work until I was 14, younger siblings about 8 and 10, but my folks were able to afford (just about, money was always very tight) a 4 bed family house in a nice road, on one very ordinary salary.
The same would be out of the question now, at least in that London-commute area.

I think quite a lot of young mothers would prefer to stay at home with their babies and small children - I certainly know of some who’ve said as much - but nowadays it’s become a luxury that far fewer can afford.

Agree. It's an enormous risk.

If I had a daughter (I have two sons), I would have encouraged her to get a good education and a career. Roughly half of all marriages end in divorce. In my opinion, any woman who deliberately relies on someone else to earn her living is taking one hell of a risk. A woman needs to be able to support herself and her children.
My first marriage was a disaster. I am SO glad that I could support myself and my sons.

I am concerned about all these people who are casually assuming that of course every family can have a mother at home - just cut back on the luxuries, big fridge freezer, foreign holidays, all the luxuries etc etc. Anyway grandparents can always help with childcare and it is only for a couple of yearss

What about the majority of families that have none of these luxuries in the first place because they cannot afford them? Quite simply the family cannot afford their rent or mortgage if there is only one wage earner.

What about those who do not live near grandparents and family. That is less and less common as people become mobile with a working life where stability of employment is rare and people move round to get work. What about those who are the carers for grandparents.

As for the price of childcare. How long it is for is irrelevant when you are having to find the money, week, on week, on week. 8 years ago when DGS was at nursery. It cost £1,000 a term for three days care.

The median salary for a _full time_employee in 2020 was around £30,000, note that is the median not the average, half the full time working population earn less than £30,000. This is a salary that only in the most exceptional circumstances can enable a household to have one wage earner only.

I think it is probably not the case that poor women have been SAHM throughout history. I would suggest that at various times women would work in the fields, assist at harvest, feed the pig, chickens etc. They would have also helped out doing jobs such as brewing (to sell the beer/ale).spinning, weaving or whatever other work needed to be done to keep body and soul together. Farmers' wives made cheese/butter to sell at market and often kept the money. I think it is only fairly recently that women did become SAHM and that did not last long. We are now in the situation where women, mostly, have to work to contribute towards the finances and effectively do two jobs, I know because that is exactly what I did.

Can't tell you all how miserable I was for the first few days of GD2 going to nursery full time at the age of nine months. I had a picture of this cheery wee soul suddenly transported into a bunch of (albeit lovely) strangers and the people she knew and related to had pretty much disappeared for a very long day of 0815 to 1700. This was the plan all along and I knew it. Nothing to do with me, of course but I was so privately miserable at the event. However, perhaps I couldn't have done it but these two children are now the most balanced, friendly, outgoing and lovely young girls. Sure there's a degree of bias (!!) but I've reasonably balanced powers of observation and they are certainly none the worse for having been somewhat 'institutionalised' from an early age. Guess it's swings and roundabouts and I was wrong to be concerned.

I completely agree with your question VQ, and I know that it has little to do with whether or not women wish to work, or whether or not expectations are higher. The simple fact is, in my opinion, that the ratio between wages and home ownership, or even safe, secure rental of a decent home, is completely skewed. An example; one of my maternal aunts lived in a very nice, comfortable council house, nice area, lovely garden etc. They had three children so she did not start working (part time) until the youngest was at senior school. Despite this, my uncle was able to earn enough, as a lorry driver, to pay rent, bills, run a car, and after a few years, go overseas for a fortnight's holiday. All on a blue collar wage. This seems unbelievable now.

Has anyone mentioned the woman's pension yet (both state and work-related)? Surely we as a generation know how important it is to have as much money as possible accumulated for the post-working years. And with divorce statistics rising, women have to make sure they're not left in poverty.

What an interesting thread.

No one has mentioned that the Stay At Home Mum is mainly a 20th century phenomenon. Prior to that, most women had to go to work, throughout history. They worked in fields and, post-industrialisation, in factories and down mines. They worked at home, too - think of all those women who sewed and wove on looms at home.

Even if they were working at home, they didn’t have time to play with their many children, that was a middle/upper class thing that was often outsourced to wet-nurses, nannies and governesses anyway.

I was mainly a SAHM to my four and I loved it but I can see the appeal today of going out to work, with so many interesting jobs and childcare more regulated and better quality. Being a SAHM now can be a lonely job, with most children over the age of one at nurseries. There isn’t the SAHM community now that existed when mine were small.

I’ve heard from some working mums that they are resentful of women who don’t work, considering that the tax they pay goes to subsidise the women who don’t earn and pay tax. They too would like the luxury of staying at home.

Certainly when I first had GC I was concerned about them going day care but I have done a 180 degree on it and now think they have benefited hugely from the chance to go to nursery. The quality is so high - my son could not provide a bus to play in, a donkey to ride on, chickens to look after and numerous playmates.

When we bought our first house in the 1960s the maximum mortgage we could get was two and a half times my husband's annual salary.

Although I was working full time my income did not count, because they assumed I would have a baby and stay at home. Now mortgages are based on two incomes and so giving up one income when the baby arrives is hardly ever an option.

I don't think we can turn back the clock but I would like to see better maternity / paternity leave, more affordable childcare and more affordable housing to give young parents more choice.

I don't think anyone is 'belittling' stay at home mums Not Spaghetti. Its their choice. It has always struck me that they can be a bit defensive about it though. If you want to stay at home, and can afford, it then do it. Just don't expect a round of applause for it just as working mums don't either.

Thanks Galaxy, not quite here yet. ?

My husband and I worked part time for many, many years so we could share the childrearing.
It wasn't easy but it was our choice.

We had little money and a big family.
We struggled financially and had lots of small money-making projects over the years, but yes we were, mostly, truly happy to have time with our children. I remember this time as hard work but full of love.
I'm not all rose-tinted-spectacles about this, but I honestly think SO many families are really missing out.

If we continue to belittle the stay-at-home parents and don't respect the work they do in raising their families, the next generations will have to be very, very, determined to do it, to go against the norm.

and I think the cancelling of stamp duty during the pandemic has made prices increase more fgs

I agree with Monica about the cost of housing. It is eye watering here

You are right Aveline I am one of those mothers who found full time child care tiresome. I was much happier with part time child care and part time employment.

Toddler groups are open in our area so you shouldn't have long to wait.

One of my daughters has "given up" a well paid professional job to stay at home with her daughter.
They moved to an area where the houses were cheap so they could manage the mortgage on one income inspite of being offered a massive mortgage to buy somewhere twice the price.

She has a second hand fridge, freezer, washer and furniture and although they have spent money on a new bath and on rewiring the house it is still pretty ordinary and pretty much as they bought it.

In the next couple of years they are hoping they will both work part time. The biggest thing for her is that all her peers are back at work and babies in daycare. This makes finding her little "tribe" really awkward and this has bern made worse in the pandemic.

I think the choices she and her husband made are not popular these days. I feel sorry for her to be honest as she doesn't have a strong network of other stay-at-home parents as I did, and has been unable to socialise.

It is, as others have said, normal for mums to give their tiny people to others these days. Given my strong belief in Early Years and it's life-long importance in the growth of a person, I find this quite sad.

I do hope the toddler groups open up soon.

It is a very hard job staying at home and looking after children. These days I think there is a tendency to look down on those mums and that was never the case years ago. In fact it was more the other way round. When I went back to work it was actually a relief, much easier. I was lucky because I was able to work part time until my children were old enough to manage on their own after school for a couple of hours
but not everyone has that available to them.

Aveline

Children go to school at 5. They're not in costly 'daycare' for very long. All sorts of arrangements are possible so they don't automatically cost a fortune. As we all know, grandparents are often happy to help. If mums want to work as opposed to having to work then why not? Not every family wants expensive foreign holidays and extra cars. For some mums their mental health is at risk if staying at home.

Yes this - and that’s also why I made the point about the importance of part time/ flexible working and family friendly policies.