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There I've said it. I feel sorry for men these days. Not about work, education etc but about perceived behaviour. It seems that today a man has to carefully consider everything he says or does. This struck me the other day when DH asked me to come outside. Our neighbours washing had dropped off the line and he was about to pick up some of her knickers and peg them back on. He felt he needed me to witness him doing so in case anyone saw him and, not realising that he was just pegging them back on the line, thought he was being pervy.
Then, yesterday, my mam told me about something that had happened to her personal trainer...a chap in his 30s. He has been training a woman for a couple of months and simply said that her muscles were developing nicely . Oh dear. If he'd said anything but 'nicely' maybe he wouldn't have been in trouble but she took it as a personal comment about her body. All he meant to do was say that her hard work was paying off. A well done. But no. Nicely is apparently now a word with sexual connotations
DH says he tries to second guess everything he says and does when interacting with women. So much of what was seen as innocent and normal when we were younger seems to now be offensive or sexually explicit. He says he's not even sure if he should hold doors open these days. If I do it no one ever complains. In fact they usually say 'Thank you'. When DH does it he knows that most people will be OK but worries about the odd woman who will (and has) taken offence that a man thinks she can't open a door for herself.
I'm not saying it's OK for men to harass women or make obvious sexual comments etc. but most men are just trying to be polite (as they were taught to be when growing up). The majority of men are not sexual predators or women beaters but it seems that today all get tarred with the same brush.
Why differentiate outerwear from underwear?
If it is out in the communal property, everything hanging there is fair game for me
I dont think anyone objects to mens sheds or support groups specifically for men around mental health for example. I would actively support and donate to them.
I feel that I need to explain about the knickers situation. We share a communal garden and therefore share clothes lines and even props. We live in the ground floor flat and our neighbour lives above us. We can see the clothes lines from our back kitchen. She can't see them from hers without climbing onto her sink. DH was being neighbourly and pegging a couple of things back onto the line as the wind had blown them off. One of the things happened to be a pair of knickers. Should he have left them on the ground to get dirty again or get blown away completely? Not very neighbourly.
Loislovesstewie
I know, she takes it in her stride, she usually has the last laugh after all.
But it is annoying, and it’s not just older men, it’s young men too, who should bloody well know better.
Men's sheds have been really successful at providing a social outlet and purpose for mainly older retired men.
There were many similar activities for women but not so much for men.
Not sure why anyone would object to that.
Also not sure how it relates to OP question.
And, no, I dont feel sorry for men
I feel this poor men thing is a furphy, I don't see why men can't avoid making inappropriate comments, it isn't hard.
And it isn't harder for men than women.
Sara1954
Loislovesstewie
We work in a company in which almost all our customers are male.
When someone is approached by our tiny, blonde daughter, they often say ‘can I speak to one of the chaps love’ she smiles, ‘yes of course’
So one of our male colleagues takes over, and says, ‘oh I’ll just get S—— she knows more about this’
She is incredibly knowledgable, and helpful, just has a job getting anyone to believe it.
To be fair to our regulars, they’re happy to be told what’s what by her.
BTW I was saying I love the fact that your daughter is knowledgable and that your regulars are happy with her. I do find it sad that we are still in the ludicrous situation that women apparently know nothing. When I started out many years ago I was told by customers (local government) that they didn't want to be told what to do' by a slip of a girl'. I told them that this slip of a girl was the one who could help them. I find it stupid that 45 years later the same applies.
I have come into contact with ‘men’s Sheds’ through work. I think they’re pretty harmless.
Grammaretto
Women on here (and elsewhere) are the mothers and grandmothers of these men.
Has something gone horribly wrong?
I hope that none of my DS or DGS would ever behave inappropriately towards women.
Our MSP is a woman, a lawyer, who advocates Men's Sheds. She thinks they are a marvellous thing for men.
Are they?
It sounds like turning the clock back and the next thing will be Women's Kitchens
what do you think?
www.ageuk.org.uk/scotland/what-we-do/community-development/mens-sheds/?gclid=CjwKCAjwkN6EBhBNEiwADVfyaxlsRhwarmbxXM7dSJgBWCJHpNjmTX7BUmqkIrnfmm3RkMipgG_MNRoCZhA
I think you need to find out more about what the Men's Sheds movement is all about. Sorry, still angry, but not at you.....
A movement that allows often older men to mix and network in an environment that feels comfortable for them and provide a safe space for them to express themselves and get over some of their problems. Been invaluable for several men I know.
I'm so angry about that "bitter" comment that I can't even construct a sensible post. Bitter because we don't care one iota what a person we don't know thinks of us?
Jesus Mary and Joseph and the wee donkey....
Hollysteers
I completely agree we have had so many laughs at work over the years, a bit of flirting, nothing more.
The reps were always good for a laugh, and so were a lot of our customers.
Totally different times now, I think we’ve chucked the baby out with the bath water, yes we’ve probably got rid of some of the more sleazy talk, but mostly it was just grown up people brightening up their day with a few laughs.
They are a good idea for men if women's sheds are also a good idea for women
Women on here (and elsewhere) are the mothers and grandmothers of these men.
Has something gone horribly wrong?
I hope that none of my DS or DGS would ever behave inappropriately towards women.
Our MSP is a woman, a lawyer, who advocates Men's Sheds. She thinks they are a marvellous thing for men.
Are they?
It sounds like turning the clock back and the next thing will be Women's Kitchens
what do you think?
www.ageuk.org.uk/scotland/what-we-do/community-development/mens-sheds/?gclid=CjwKCAjwkN6EBhBNEiwADVfyaxlsRhwarmbxXM7dSJgBWCJHpNjmTX7BUmqkIrnfmm3RkMipgG_MNRoCZhA
It’s not just what is said it’s also how it is said, the tone of voice, body language etc. Most women know when something else is meant. Opening doors for another is a common courtesy that women and men should do anyway. Some men use this as an example to excuse their bad behaviour in other ways. It’s a poor excuse though as so many doors in public open automatically these days!
Flirtation is appropriate. Trying to engage someone who CLEARLY isn't interested isn't flirting, it is harrassment.
I appreciate that at times, flirtation may be attempted and rebuffed. At which point, it should stop.
Unwanted attention is harrassment. It isn't bitter to say that. Just realistic.
Years ago my mam was a nurse. One night a Dr tried to lock her in the linen cupboard with him. Bad move. My mam kneed him in the privates and reported him to her superiors. No one tried that again with her or any of the student nurses. My mam is gone now but she was always my hero. A small woman in stature but she always stood up for herself and others.
Sarah1954
A man on my role says something- he is generally not questioned about it
A woman? I say the same thing a man says and it is questioned, negotiated and discussed to death, it is exhausting
Most of my colleagues trust me and the conversation is much more organic, collaborative and pleasant, we learn from each other and are happy to exchange ideas.
I have one or two bad apples that just plain refuse to do anything I ask (company policies)
To be clear, I dont mind being challenged and questioned at all, it is the fact that having ovaries vs a penis makes me "untrustworthy and unsuitable to tell them what to do"
If you are calling me bitter -
Yes, I am bitter that women have been educated since childhood to eat their feelings and think how it affect others first while now men, who may be seeing the tip of the iceberg, are crying wolf - " this is so hard, I have no idea how not to offend people, wah wah wah"
Crybabies...
I am more bitter that it is women who perpetuate this disfunction and keep putting other women down vs empower them
No, I dont think the innocent flirting will go anywhere
I hope both sides interpreting the reaction of the other one realistically and women feeling more empowered to say no directly and assertively w/o feeling scared of the person's reaction
....and there seem to be some very bitter women on this thread.
Care to elaborate?
That my words ‘may’ have been twisted to a horrible thought.
Thankfully times have changed on the whole regarding unwanted sexual comments.
However, am I being naively nostalgic when I say it is a pity men and women may lose the art of innocent flirting? I remember it brightened up one’s day considerably and made me feel like a woman. With eyes down, walking on eggshells and grim faces, men have lost their charm and there seem to be some very bitter women on this thread. Even Germaine Greer admitted to how much pleasure she got from attention from men in Italy?
And it is truly upsetting to someone like me, who likes to compliment people on something pleasing to the eye, male or female, that my words have been twisted to a horrible thought.
I wish she could have been sent to the set of Dr Who, she might have been able to sort out the situation there.
Round of applause for purplepixie's mum!
Your mam sounds fab purplepixie.
. Sorry hithere that you experienced that, completely inappropriate.
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