“You realise that’s racist mum”

Shakespeare: Sonnet 18

But thy eternal summer shall not fade,
Nor lose possession of that fair thou ow’st,

using the adjective as a noun - Shakespeare could get away with anything!

Anyway discussions like these always seem to be carried on by terribly sensitive ladies like us so determined not to hurt anyone's feelings. perhaps we should leave these discussions to those who these words affect directly

We should definitely not leave it to those who these words affect directly If we'd done that we'd still be using the N-word, and a lot else besides. Those who are marginalised by racist though and speech have been in no position, generally, to make these changes.

IMO it is not about being sensitive and certainly not about the favoured fall-back dismissive word "offended". It is about understanding that the use of certain language diminishes certain groups of people and reinforces subconscious barriers between "us and them".

Those who complain that they don't know what they can say any more can just pay attention and try to understand that they are in a privileged position. That they have a responsibility.

vegansrock

I’m not finding “fault with anything”, I’d like to know if people think the N word is Ok because it was common parlance 50 years ago and no one was offended then were they? - it’s just a word by that logic. Times change and people’s way of thinking changes believe it or not.

Exactly. It is quite simple, really.

but that language that equates white as positive/ black as negative should be questioned as they contribute to unconscious bias..

People keep saying this but aduce no evidence to support it.
Were the Royal family racist because they were bedecked in black at the Duke of Edinburgh's funeral? Did their so doing really contribute the zenophobia of anyone in this country?

A classic sign of confused thinking is the n word. That was a word for a type of person, that, admittedly, did have origins in the word for black in romance languages, but the use of the n word to describe a shade of brown, especially when that word is pejorative is unacceptable, but the word was used as a description of a shade of a colour not the name of a colour itself.

Anyway discussions like these always seem to be carried on by terribly sensitive ladies like us so determined not to hurt anyone's feelings. perhaps we should leave these discussions to those who these words affect directly

Yes, quite probably as I was referring to her skill at handling the 'wobble'! I often wonder at the people calling 'racism'. Are they the actual racists?

It bothers me when a flawed or incomplete understanding of the meaning of a word or idiom or of history leads to nonsense associations with racism or causing offence.
“Fair” is just one example - it has has many meanings from “just” to “beautiful” to “not raining” (!) - “fair-skinned” being only one connotation among many.
Shakespeare’s Black Lady wasn’t and nor was the Black Douglas (also known as Good Sir James) of Scottish History fame (or infamy)

There are more brown-eyed people than blue-eyed people – the gene for brown eyes being dominant and the gene for blue eyes being recessive. So if "blue-eyed boy" is regarded as offensive, it is probably more as a result of elitism than racism. We green-eyed people tend to be regarded with suspicion for potential witch-like practices and, as remarked above, there is the well-known green-eyed monster of jealousy. Hazel eyes, I think, are just accepted for what they are and not demonised in any way.

I’m not finding “fault with anything”, I’d like to know if people think the N word is Ok because it was common parlance 50 years ago and no one was offended then were they? - it’s just a word by that logic. Times change and people’s way of thinking changes believe it or not.

Vegans rock, if you look hard you can find fault with anything, make something out of nothing, I completely disagree with your comments,

I think your sons remarks ridiculous.of course blue eyes are not rascist. He should look up what it is to be rascist. Soon we will all be reading from a script in order not to offend. It's an expression, such as green eyed monster . How are blue eyes rascist. Are brown eyes better? No. green, grey, blue, green, different colours just part of what we are. Like hair colour. Soon we won't be able to open our mouths in case it's rascist, sexist or something ist.

What about Van Morrison’s song ‘brown eyed girl’ ? Is that racist,too?

Some of you are missing the point - no one has said you can’t use descriptive colour words , but that language that equates white as positive/ black as negative should be questioned as they contribute to unconscious bias. Racism exists on many levels, although some of you seem to be denying that it exists at all.

"My husband and daughter once had a huge argument about the use of the word Indian."

And yet Washington has a National Museum of the American Indian.

"Equating being fair with beauty is racist, even I now see that, as is equating being the most popular with being blue eyed"

No it isn't. Milkmaids were fair simply because they did not get smallpox due to having immunity via cowpox. Therefore their skins were unblemished.

I don't know what language these zealots would have us speak but it certainly isn't English with it's rich vocabulary and long history.

I for one don't like Newspeak or the implications of using it.

tickingbird

What codswallop. I’d advise your son to get a life.

tickingbird
Nail on the head ?

Times change and we need to change with it. I know there are some things that we don't even realize are based on colonial or racist ways of thinking. I've never heard the term blue-eyed boy, but have heard the term golden boy, as in the favoured child. Same thing, I guess.

My husband and daughter once had a huge argument about the use of the word Indian. He used it in relation to First Nations people(talking about a friend he went to school with) and my daughter told him he was racist to use the word. It's a touchy subject and neither were really correct. It can be seen as derogatory by some, but is still in common usage by some band governments.

I'm in the do-no-harm camp and will not use a phrase or word if someone is offended.

3nanny6

Summerlove ther are many black groups and so you can get many different records.
Just a quick example try Rivers of Babylon by Boney M it is old now but still quite catchy

You’ve missed my point completely

*Kali2. I agree that _SOME- of our language is based on our colonial past, but very few indeed of the phrases using words referring to colour. Obviously a few do, but are words for some colours to be conpletely banned because a couple of their uses are unacceptable? Are we to ban Blackmail a word that hales back to the border reivers (English/Scottish border) of the 16th century? They also gave us the word bereavement - to lose someone killed in one of the many riever skirmishes and raids that bedevilled that area for several hundred years.

It is not about seeing racism everywhere, but as Vegansrock so clearly explained, about acknowledging how so much of our language is based on our colonial past. It may seem like codswallop to you, but it can be really hurtful to others- including children.

Just depends if you have close contact to children and adults affected by those words and expressions.

I suppose you think we should continue to use Golliwogs, etc.

There was no mention of colour, but I once had a post deleted on GN because someone complained at my using the word foreigner, said I was racist!

tickingbird

What codswallop. I’d advise your son to get a life.

?yes, absolutely. I would also say that to the many posters on here who see ‘racism’ in virtually every old saying there is.

These are phrases that many of use use unthinkingly , and whilst they aren’t directly racist in any way, they nevertheless reinforce the beliefs that white is positive/ black negative.

Oh, please, anyone who finds themselves thinking negatively of someone who doesn't have pinky/beige skin, only because we talk of blackmail, black market or dark forces. In fact has anyone ever done that and where is the evidence.

In fact no one has either white or black skin but something along a range between those two extremes. I assume we shouldn't talk about someone wearing a drab brown coat, or the wintry colours of brown.. Then of course there is yellow, oh horror of horrors, that too is racist, as is red, and think of all those aliens we describe as little green men.

In fact there is not a single colour that cannot be considered racist and demeaning of someone, oh except purple, but I'm working on it.

The earliest Brtains were dark skinned and blue eyed and there are still today ethinic groups with that colouring.

Black/white they are the names of colours. Take it to ridiculous limits and describing snow as white will be considered racist. Many of the terms

Should read some football fans before I am bashed.

Football fans are ignorant morons, but you can’t deny the monkey chants, throwing bananas at black players is overtly racist. The language we use has implications, we aren’t conscious many of them. We should be more aware of this, even if we find it uncomfortable.

I did mention my mixed race GC and me calling them cheeky monkeys. Just like I call the white ones.

Personally I don't think my GC look like monkeys. Do you think mixed race/black children look like monkeys, vegansrock?

No interest in the foul chants from football fans. They are just idiots.