Care home fees

Thanks everyone I will let her know what's been discussed. I didn't think it would be simple. I think the best thing she can do is take some legal advice.

It is called "deprivation of assets" and if it can be shown that this was an attempt to avoid paying for care, then the LA will treat her as if she had those assets and pay/not pay towards her care accordingly.

If she is going to do this you need at the very least to make sure she pays the new owners the going rate of rent, and can prove this.

BlueBelle - it is true that everyone in a home gets the same level of care regardless of who is footing the bill; but the LA will only fund up to a certain level, which eliminates the possibility of going to a really good home. Some homes that accept LA residents are brilliant - some are awful.

M0nica

Bluebelle state funded residents in homes with fee paying residents are having their fees subsidised by other residents, because the Local Authority do not pay enough to cover the cost of their care.

I have told my children that if I need to go into a care home it has to be one that takes fee paying residents only, so that I pay only for the cost of my own care.

I have no objection to paying extra taxation through any form of taxation to ensure that all older people who need care, but cannot afford it, get a good standard of care, but the state must pay every penny of that care, not rely on other residents in the same care home paying up to £100 a week extra in fees, to subsidise those residents whose fees are paid by the local authority.

It is a nasty sneaking tax that no one notices inflicted on the weakest and most vulnerable people, who have no say in whether they pay this extra 'tax' or not.

You are so right M0nica, my mum pays £1050 a week for her care home, a friends mum lives at the same home but now her money has run out, the LA pays £675 for her room. At least she did not have to move care homes and had already paid for her own care for a number of years but the difference in fees is staggering.

I have had the same conversation with my children!

Monica, my mother’s (dementia only) care home accepted both council and self-funded residents. I don’t know what the ratio was but I’d imagine about 50/50. However the care was excellent, they all had the same sort of rooms, and it was by no means the most expensive we looked at - out of many, I might add.

The very worst home I ever knew of, was the outwardly very plush, seafront one, where dh’s old aunt (no dementia) put herself for a month while her helper was away. I visited her there more than once - the staff were surly and miserable, the atmosphere was very far from welcoming. She hated it and couldn’t wait to get home.

Bluebelle state funded residents in homes with fee paying residents are having their fees subsidised by other residents, because the Local Authority do not pay enough to cover the cost of their care.

I have told my children that if I need to go into a care home it has to be one that takes fee paying residents only, so that I pay only for the cost of my own care.

I have no objection to paying extra taxation through any form of taxation to ensure that all older people who need care, but cannot afford it, get a good standard of care, but the state must pay every penny of that care, not rely on other residents in the same care home paying up to £100 a week extra in fees, to subsidise those residents whose fees are paid by the local authority.

It is a nasty sneaking tax that no one notices inflicted on the weakest and most vulnerable people, who have no say in whether they pay this extra 'tax' or not.

If the state is paying for her care, it will be the absolute cheapest

Chardy that is not necessarily so, my mum was in a home that the state paid for as dad was still living in their home and they had no big savings but she got the same treatment as those paying
My friends mum started off paying in a very expensive home when her money ran out the state took over didn’t make her change to a cheaper home
Anyway they all have to pass the same regulations
But …..
The original question was nothing to do with care or curtains it was about the means to not have to sell your house for care home fees

It’s not just a question of being able to choose which care home, either, if you’re self-funded - it’s being able to choose when the time is right - instead of being dependent on the tender mercies of social services.

Understandably enough, because of the huge cost, they will often wait until family carers are on their knees with exhaustion from trying to cope, before considering a care home placement. Though this will apply rather more when dementia is involved, than when it’s ‘just’ a case of physical frailty.

As pps have said, though, the most expensive will not necessarily be the best. We looked at many care homes, for both my mother and my FiL, and from experience I certainly would not judge standards of care by ‘Homes and Gardens’ type decor.

You can grannyrebel17,and read what BridgetPark said as it`s spot on.

I agree with you MissAdventure, fancy curtains and expensive wallpaper etc is no guarantee of good care. Quality care comes from the top ie manager , it is that persons responsibility to create a culture of care that rubs off on every member of staff , regardless of their position. Of course if it can be afforded and a home is found with quality decor and excellent care then its win win. However the priority is care - good care , that is essential whether a resident is in private or council accomodation. If a home is treating residents with respect and is not patronizing ,but is providing tailored care to all then this is as it should be. However this is sadly lacking in many care homes.

There are many posts about this on the Home Buying, Selling and Renting forum on Moneysavingexpert, and it is seen as deliberate 'deprivation of assets' to avoid care home fees.

More expensive isn't necessarily better.
Nicer wallpaper and curtains, but the standard of care depends on the management and staff.

If the state is paying for her care, it will be the absolute cheapest.

I went to a solicitor to ask that very question and get them to do it for me because my friend was rejoicing her 7 years was up but they told me not to consider doing it that it is not as cut and dried as people believe it to be and this solicitor is also a friend so I know the information would be to my best interest

When my mum went into a care home last year, I had to provide 15 years of financial paperwork to prove she had not given away any assets. The local authority were aware that mum owned her own house but still wanted to know about her savings and investments to make sure she had enough to fund herself.

It’s called deprivation of assets and she won’t get away with it.

MOnica - excellent analysis. You’re a smart cookie.

If she puts the house in her children's names and lives in it, she will have to pay her children the full market rent. The tax people will check that each year and that it rises(or falls) in line with the market in her area. If she doesn't pay the rent, the house will be deemed to still be hers and it will have to be sold to pay fees.

It also depends when she does it. Do it at 50 when in really good health and you will get away with it, but you need to remember that if you give the house to the children it will form part of their assets and if they go bankrupt, or divorcr the value of the house will form part of their assets, so she might have to move out because it needs ot be sold, alternately, if at any time the children just decide they want the money they can give her notice to quit and sell it whether that is what she wants or not.

When worked for a charity I was sent ot visit on old man in his 90s who had given each of his children a share in the house and paid them rent, but in his 90s, which he had never expected to live into, and living in what was now a highly desirable and expensive area, the monthly rent exceeded his total monthly income.

I am afraid your friend really is being very naive if she thinks something as simple as this could get you out of paying care fees. If it worked, everyone would do it, which is why the government closed that loophole.

Has she given any thought to the quality of care she would get if she relied on state care? Nowadays, state care means your local council decides where you go and if you do not likewhere you are, well tough luck. Personally I would do anything to be able to fund any care I need myself and go into a care home of my choice.

Here is a useful link, but be aware it is a commercial site. ukcareguide.co.uk/avoiding-care-home-fees/

GillT57 - Absolutely correct. There are legal methods you can explore to try and protect your interests but even then you can come unstuck.
One of my neighbours was trying to sell her house to her son for a nominal amount and ran into a lot of trouble as a result.

I don't think it is quite as easy as people are leading you to believe; if this was the case, a lot of people would have done it already. There are implications not only for assessment for care home fees, but also for inheritance tax. We have taken advice from a solicitor specialising in tax, wills and trusts in order to protect one of us if the other one needs to pay care home fees, but be assured, you cannot just give your house away or sell it cheaply to a family member for the purpose of care home fees avoidance. Apart from anything else, why should your friend be able to do this, leave hundreds of thousands of pounds to her family, and ask me, as a taxpayer to fund her care home?

Sorry I don't think I made that clear, she'd need to give away the difference between first home and second home, she can't avoid contributing for care by giving away her new home.

She would need to pay the market rent for her house to her children otherwise she will be seen as giving her home away. However, if she buys a cheaper home and gives her money away, provided she lives 7 years she would only have to contribute her new home.

Yes, as long as it is 7 years or more. It can also be put into a trust, for inheritance tax purposes but the added bonus is that it is protected from care costs, local authorities cannot take it into account. You have to make sure that it is to avoid inheritance tax.

A good tax lawyer maybe. I think many do this.

She needs to have a read of gov.uk website about inheritance tax, giving away money etc. If she did what you said, she would have to pay rent at the going rate to her children!

My mistake, sorry, i am thinking of Inheritance Tax, totally different problem, sorry