Mridul Wadhwa - Male CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis

Well what you all seem to be saying is that the law no longer protects women. You are blaming transwomen for this. But here's the thing the law is not passed by transwomen. There are no transwomen in Parliament. There are few transwomen on any other body. So why are you blaming them? The only people benefitting from this split in the women's movement are the men who really conrol things. So why not apportion blame where it is due? To the sexist H of C which after 100 years of women being able to vote has still not equal numbers of men and women MPs.
And before you go on about trans activists and their power (which I really don't understand). How come a huge movement like Extinction Rebellion staging marches of over 10,000 people in London is largely ignored whereas a small number of activists from a community of an estimated 200,000-500000 people can apparently force organisations to change policies. And yes I know about Stonewall, but if they are so powerful how come the law remains as it does?
By all means insist the law is correctly applied but stop blaming transwomen because it isn't.

Grannygravy yes, it's all about entitlement.

Peasblossom

“If I had been living a lifestyle for a number of years, I would assume that lifestyle was known to most people”

Well, only if they knew you. Had come across you in some area of their lives. I don’t think that’s a valid statement. Not many people go frequently to. Rape Centre. How would they know anything about the people who work there?

I can only think that this point is being deliberately missed, peasblossom.

A transwoman sitting on the bus has a right to be assumed to be female, and even if she is obviously male has an absolute right to be protected from abuse. If she needs medical care, she should be treated with respect, and if she adopts children they should call her whatever name she prefers. If she applies for a job in which sex or gender is not important (ie the majority of jobs) then she should be treated as any other applicant and so on (and on and on).

It is only when she is around vulnerable women who are unhappy about her being there that there is a problem. So if she is sitting in the female changing room of the baths, if she wants a female beautician to wax her testicles, if she puts her sex (rather than her gender) as female when filling in a form that will be used to inform sex-based policies, or if she applies for a job that involves intimate touching of vulnerable women, then, IMO, she is way out of line. When others acting in what they see as the interests of transpeople say that all women should be knows as 'people who menstruate', or 'natal women', or 'CIS women' or whatever the current term may be, then IMO they are also way out of line, and in that case they harm the cause of transpeople as well as the cause of women.

What do you disagree with about that, trisher?

Women have fought for years to have their voices heard and for their own rights.
Now a man can put on a dress, and decide he is a transwomen and therefore entitled to enter our world?

My answer to that is (apologies in advance if this offends) if the person wearing a dress and calling themselves Freda has a penis then they are in fact Fred however anyone wants to argue it.

I have female friends who are lesbian and male friends who are gay.

I will continue to fight in whatever way I can to ensure that my DD and GD’s are safe and secure when they enter what are female only spaces with no chance of a female? with a penis sharing that space

“If I had been living a lifestyle for a number of years, I would assume that lifestyle was known to most people”

Well, only if they knew you. Had come across you in some area of their lives. I don’t think that’s a valid statement. Not many people go frequently to. Rape Centre. How would they know anything about the people who work there?

When I went for a massage at a Spa they asked if I was ok with a male masseur.

When I had a breast scan I was asked if a male trainee could sit in.

When my niece had her baby they asked if she would be happy with a male midwife.

It was possible to say no to all of these because it was open and acknowledged the right of choice over our own bodies and who could touch them.

So why is a rape Centre different? Why can’t you know who is wanting to treat you and have a choice without being judged?

trisher

Chewbacca Could you please explain to me how my belief that transwomen are women in any way dilutes or even effects the rights of women, females or any other person?

Your belief makes no difference at all.

Women's rights, are diluted the minute that we no longer have a word that describes us as what we are, though.

As Chewbacca says, examples of how this works have been given ad nauseam, on this very thread, as well as on numerous others on the topic.

And Gaga - taking words that someone else has used and adding 'so funny' is not debate. It is rude and childish. Are you ever going to actually add something to this discussion? So far we know that you think that TWAW, that you know you are a woman because it is 'in your head', and that anyone who disagrees with you is a bigoted, discriminatory hater, with life experiences that you have assumed gives them less right than you have to speak on the thread.

My comment was idiomatic, not hyperbole, by the way.

Trisher the right to safe spaces may be “protected by law”. The right of who can use them has been eroded by current actions.
Lovely word antediluvian-inappropriately used, but lovely word.
Thanks for the quote Chewbacca. It sums things up for me.

Could you please explain to me how my belief that transwomen are women in any way dilutes or even effects the rights of women, females or any other person?

trisher I don't actually feel that I ought to explain this to you again when it's been explained to you over and over and over again. It's not that it hasn't been explained to you, nor is it that you don't understand. You simply don't like the answers that you've been given and so repeatedly ask again in the hope that you'll get the answers you want. You can take your pick of any of the examples already provided, of how having a man in a place, where vulnerable women need sanctuary, is not acceptable. Transcripts from women who have been raped, abused and assaulted; explaining why having a man (however he "sees himself in his head") is traumatic for them, have been provided ad nauseum. You choose not to see it or understand it. If you don't accept the lived experiences and testimony of a woman in crisis, you won't accept anything that I, or other posters on this thread tell you because you're as blinkered to their needs as you accuse others of being towards those of men who say they are women.

It also apparently means you stop listening to women, women in prison are telling you how it impacts them, women in sport are telling you, bloody hell those running prisons are telling you. Yes we can pretend it has no impact if we ignore women who ate talking about it.

It makes the word woman meaningless. If you include men in the term women I have no idea what it means.

trisher

Chewbacca Could you please explain to me how my belief that transwomen are women in any way dilutes or even effects the rights of women, females or any other person?

Exactly.

Takes nothing away from anyone.

Doodledog Tue 24-Aug-21 01:58:37
A stick to beat you with? So funny.

See, you’re being rude again. And as usual not addressing any of the issues.

It was your comment. As mentioning another person in a post isn't anyway threatening or violent, your comment was hyperbole, to say the least. And yet the bit you see as rude is MY response to you. Oh the irony.

Chewbacca Could you please explain to me how my belief that transwomen are women in any way dilutes or even effects the rights of women, females or any other person?

I saw this on Mumsnet and feel that it perfectly articulates how I feel about trans:

The over whelming majority of people in the UK wish to support trans people, but not at the expense of the rights for all females or at the expense of known science seems too painful for some posters.

With thanks to the Mumsnet poster.

The right to safe spaces is still protected by law Mollygo.
If I had been living a certain lifestyle for a number of years I would simply assume that lifestyle was known to most people and i would not bring it up either in normal conversation or a job interview. If I was asked about it I would answer but really this idea that you are concealing something because you don't mention it at interview is actually ridiculous.
We stopped people asking intrusive questions sometime ago. So a pregnant women does not have to reveal it at interview, nor does she have to say if she has or intends to have children. Employers are not even permitted to ask about that. Why should transgender people have to reveal their personal details?

And once again the whole emphasis is on transwomen. There are transmen and non-binary people. It takes all sorts and this peculiar emphasis on one area is not only reactionary it is positively antediluvian.

Excellent post at 00.59 Doodledog The level of genuine debate, knowledge and research displayed, by most of the posters on this thread, is inspiring. The outrage that women's rights and opinions are slowly, but surely being eroded echoes the threads on Mumsnet and I've learned a lot from them too. The dropped in insults, attacks and threats on this thread of "you know what will happen" are par for the course: SHUT UP WOMAN. YOU HAVE NO VOICE will never change; some women have been programmed to "know their place" and question nothing that a man tells them.

Phobia is an irrational fear.
Hate is something different. I don’t hate transwomen, or whatever people feel in their heads. I hate their actions when they cause harm to others either physically or mentally or when they want to override the rights of natal women in particular the right to safe spaces, and the right to be treated by a natal woman, not someone who concealed his sexual identity to get a job offered to a woman.

A stick to beat you with? So funny.

See, you’re being rude again. And as usual not addressing any of the issues.

Yes, life goes on, but it is manners to respond to a post that someone has bothered to make in response to a barked instruction from you to BE CLEAR! You returned to the thread, acknowledged that you had ignored the response and said that you only ever bothered to read the last page. How is that debating? Just popping in to tell us we are bigoted, never adding anything to the discussion and refusing to engage is rude and offensive.

It’s not about being trans exclusionary, it’s about not wanting to give up all female rights to anyone who wants to take them by simply saying that they are women. You dismiss that as bigoted, because it doesn’t fit the TRA narrative in which women give way to men. That narrative is doing a lot of harm to ‘moderate’ transwomen, who just want to get on with their lives, and not make everything into a fight.

A stick to beat you with? So funny.

And as for disappearing... This forum isn't real life. And real life does continue.

Debate isn't being harangued into answering closed ended questions. I completely accept that there are different points of view. But ANYTHING that is posted that doesn't follow the trans exclusionary party line is dismissed and insulted as 'not based in fact' or as 'bad science' despite the evidence to the contrary.

That poor, poor girl. It really is heartbreaking.

An excellent article by forwomen.scot; "The Real Crisis at Rape Crisis Scotland", covers the whole debacle. This paragraph is just heartbreaking: Last night I spent an hour on the phone with a heartbroken mother of a girl who was raped by a number of teenage boys and who did not get the support she needed because she was told that a woman counsellor could not be guaranteed. She developed PTSD.” As one woman who attended a meeting with the CEO of RCS wrote: “We reached out to be told that TW are not only women, but female too. The damage that meeting caused us. For so very long. The woman who should have helped us rode all over us. For men. And a fucked up belief in queer theory. What utter bastards. The lot of them.” Why is it so difficult in services that, according to Wadhwa, were “set up with the blood, sweat, and tears of women” and whose “workforce is reserved for women only” to guarantee that a female will be a counsellor if needed?

The comments at the bottom of the article wholeheartedly condemn what Mridul Wadhwa has done at RCS.

GagaJo

No, as you know well Chewbacca, a pile on is when one individual is picked on. Admittedly, it isn't usually me, but I'm QUITE happy to deal with it. And as we both know, you've been present before in these situations.

So by all means, continue. Because you know what will happen.

That sounds threatening, GJ.

You have been aggressive and rude already on this thread, so following up with threatening posts isn't a good look.

People are disagreeing with you. Largely because we have beliefs which are as deeply held as your own, but also because you don't have any real arguments but instead resort to insults and unpleasant behaviour. You don't agree with our views, but we have a right to hold them. Rather than accept that and debate as equals, however, you dismiss us as theorists, ask for declarations of sexuality, then say that you couldn't be less interested in it, tell us that our beliefs are horrific to your partner, say that you can't be bothered to rehash things that you've said before, and that we are discriminatory, bigoted 'haters' of transpeople. Of all of the rude and aggressive things you have said, I take exception to that one the most.

As a self-proclaimed feminist who volunteers on helplines and goes on marches, and has loudly trumpeted 'right on' values, you can't seriously be surprised when people are a bit taken aback when you use your male partner as a stick to beat us with?

Similarly, as a defender of the trans cause, you can't be surprised when your condescending example of a 'Good Transwoman with a soft voice who does good works' is met with cynicism?

The trans issue is an important one for women, and the chance to debate the issues with people whose views differ from our own could be useful to both 'sides', but it will never get anywhere as long as you try to shout us down or disappear when someone asks you a question. I can't remember if it is on this thread or another similar one, as there have been a few recently, but I haven't forgotten how you shouted at me to answer your questions, then refused to engage with my reply, saying that you only read the last few posts and weren't prepared to change your ways. That is another example of your rude and aggressive style.

I can understand that it must be difficult from your side of the posts, and that you see this as a 'pile on'; but it's not people ganging up - it is a few people who are sick of being dismissed and patronised as though we are schoolchildren who won't take a telling. We are all grown women, who just happen to disagree with you. It's a pity that you won't engage with us on that level, as if there were a debate it could be an interesting one.

I think it is almost comical that you are telling us to sit down and shut up and accept that there are other views different from ours, and even more so that you tell us to discuss this privately and not on a public forum. Who do you think you are? You point blank refuse to accept that we are speaking a word of truth, so it's not as though you are being reasonable from the other side.

What you see as half baked is actually an attempt to stand up to those who have opinions which many feminists see as exclusionary. And how dare you tell me I am half baked and ill informed? Have I said that I find you bigoted, discriminatory and offensive? I do, but it doesn't have to be said.

A difference of opinions doesn't have to descend into a slanging match and yet the insults seem inevitable when someone tries to challenge the narrative.

As I KEEP saying. This is a public forum. If you don't want debate with opinions that differ, talk about it privately. If you do it in a public place, accept that it isn't an echo chamber and that some will disagree.

There is no "pile on" on this thread, just angry, frustrated women who can see that their rights as women are being sacrificed for a very vocal minority of men. No one, including you, has been personally attacked. Half baked, ill informed, woke opinions have been, and will continue to be challenged, even when you threaten me.