Mridul Wadhwa - Male CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis

No, as you know well Chewbacca, a pile on is when one individual is picked on. Admittedly, it isn't usually me, but I'm QUITE happy to deal with it. And as we both know, you've been present before in these situations.

So by all means, continue. Because you know what will happen.

Continue the pile on

Ah, I've seen you use this old chestnut before! New definition of "pile on"; the majority of posters don't agree with me and my partner.

No, quite. Again, as I have said before, in this case phobia isn't fear, it is hate.

Fortunately, the woman at hand is more than capable of dealing with trans hate. And calling it what it is.

GagaJo

One of the trans women I knew actually started a lesbian, women only bookshop and did a lot for the LBGTQ community in her area. A lovely lady. Softly spoken and very kind.

Why does this need a mention. Why shouldn’t she be soft spoken and very kind? Are you saying we should not expect any transwomen to be like that.
I presume by transphobic, you mean to have an irrational fear of trans genders. I don’t have a fear, irrational or otherwise of them.
I can’t pretend not to be concerned about the behaviour of some transwomen and others who seem to regard themselves as having rights that override the rights of natal women.
Those that do that aren’t the ‘softly spoken and very kind ones you mention.
Now, back to the title.

As I said earlier, public forum.

You want an echo chamber? Have a private discussion.

Trans phobics only.

Oh well, if you feel happier now that a man has told you that what you think is right.

Peasblossom

But why did you think that your partners opinion would be of such particular relevance or interest to anyone?

Why on earth did you introduce him and his opinion to the discussion as if you needed a male opinion to validate your own?

?

But why did you think that your partners opinion would be of such particular relevance or interest to anyone?

Why on earth did you introduce him and his opinion to the discussion as if you needed a male opinion to validate your own?

And as for this statement, 'The people on this thread have all, as far as I can remember, said that we are not transphobic.'

Saying it is irrelevant, if the gender critical movement makes their lives harder/worse.

Doodledog

GagaJo

Who asked you to DD?

I wouldn't ask anything of people who hold views so diametrically opposite to me.

? You brought it up, though - don't turn it round as though I suggested that the opinion your partner (with absolutely no disrespect to him at all) was relevant to this discussion at this time between the people on this thread.

Of course, his opinions are as relevant as those of anyone else, but just not in this context.

You implied I asked you to value his response. You don't value the response of another women, so WTH would you value the response of a bloke?

Continue the pile on, on here and it's the surest way to get the thread deleted, which I'm sure isn't your intention.

He was horrified.

Well that’s definitive then. A male has spoken.

And somehow a female thinks that’s really important to tell us.

?

I spoke to my partner about the attitudes on here about this issue last week and he was horrified too. And he is pretty staid usually.

So what? He's a man! His opinion on this is worthless! How can he possibly understand why natal women are so vehemently against people, of his sex, insisting that we accommodate them in our spaces and don't want them pretending to be women when we've been raped, abused, need intimate examinations or just plain don't want a man around us; even if he's wearing a dress, make up and has boobs.

And just in case you really didn't know; it's not just breasts, a uterus and what's in your head that makes you a woman; you have different chromosomes too.

GagaJo

Who asked you to DD?

I wouldn't ask anything of people who hold views so diametrically opposite to me.

? You brought it up, though - don't turn it round as though I suggested that the opinion your partner (with absolutely no disrespect to him at all) was relevant to this discussion at this time between the people on this thread.

Of course, his opinions are as relevant as those of anyone else, but just not in this context.

GagaJo

One of the trans women I knew actually started a lesbian, women only bookshop and did a lot for the LBGTQ community in her area. A lovely lady. Softly spoken and very kind.

I'm sure she was lovely, just as I'm sure you have done all the many feminist and political things you mention on here, but with all due respect, they are not relevant to the discussion. It's as though you see things like that as trump cards that give your ideas more weight than those of others, which you dismiss as 'theoretical'. They don't.

Why shouldn't your friend have done those things and been soft spoken and lovely? Are you suggesting that it is somehow surprising that she could be those things as well as being a transwoman? That would not surprise me at all, so I'm surprised that it seems to strike you as something unusual.

The people on this thread have all, as far as I can remember, said that we are not transphobic. We don't need to be patronised by examples of 'Good Transwomen', because we know that they exist, and many of us will have personal experience of knowing them.

You are fond of posting analogies between racism and trans issues. How would you feel if someone said, in a parallel conversation about racism 'Oh, I had a black friend once, and he was lovely. He ran the scouts and did good deeds for all the town.'? That sort of tokenism is disrespectful to the people you use as examples and adds no weight to your argument at all.

Who asked you to DD?

I wouldn't ask anything of people who hold views so diametrically opposite to me.

I think that our culture divides people into opposites as far as gender goes, not sex. I also think that gender exists on a continuum, and few people sit at either end - most of us move up and down the middle somewhere - and things like cultural norms, historical eras, social class and age influence how 'typical' we are perceived in terms of those cultural expectations, but anyway, it is society that decides what is 'appropriate' male and female behaviour. It's just that most people don't fully conform to one set or norms or the other.

As I have said before, but will take the time to say again, I think that it would be far better for society to stop seeing some behaviours as 'male' and others 'female', so people can just be, and decide for themselves on a pick and mix. The idea that people can feel that they are in the 'wrong' gender simply reinforces the idea that there is such a thing as 'correct' gender behaviour, which I don't accept.

Sex, on the other hand is immutable, and cannot, therefore, be changed.

Oh, and if we are playing at being extremely rude - just as you couldn't care less about my personal life and can't be bothered to explain your unscientific theories about sex, I'm not really interested in your partner's reaction either. I don't have to run things by a man to find my bearings, particularly the partner of someone on the internet.

One of the trans women I knew actually started a lesbian, women only bookshop and did a lot for the LBGTQ community in her area. A lovely lady. Softly spoken and very kind.

Mollygo

Who suggested it was invitation only?
I just expected you to post soon, and you did.
You decided to post about your body, I didn’t ask. Being vocal to your partner of whatever sex wasn’t what I asked, but I’ll make it clearer. Do you talk about your lack of body parts in public and use that to support your views on the rights of transwomen overriding the rights of natal women?

My lack of female organs doesn't tend to come up. Most people know though. I'm not embarrassed or ashamed. Also, most people I know are inclusive and supportive of trans people.

But yes, if I was in a position where it was relevant, of course I'd use it.

And no, I do not believe that trans women override the rights of cis women.

Try to edge me into a corner all you like. I do not believe the same things as you.

when I was close to a few transwomen some years back the people concerned knew they were not really women.
They wanted to be women and lived as if women. They were all gentle and lovely people.
But not women. In fact they were often sad knowing that they could not achieve their dream to be a woman.

some years after that I moved away and didn't keep in touch but now things have gone to this new ground and I do wonder what my old friends do and feel now.

I do not accept that a man can become a woman. It is just not possible to me.
I had a younger brother who aged 4 decided he was actually a bear and that my mums next baby would be a baby bear.
Actually that baby was a girl and broke my brother's heart with disappointment.

I do not believe that young kids can know they are in the wrong body because they have such wonderful imaginations and they don't really seem to be grounded in the real physical world.

I am not in contact with any Trans now. But I don't feel (my feelings) that it is ok for a man to counsel a raped woman.

Why don't my feelings count?
Men need to stop telling woman what it what and listen to us instead.

Who suggested it was invitation only?
I just expected you to post soon, and you did.
You decided to post about your body, I didn’t ask. Being vocal to your partner of whatever sex wasn’t what I asked, but I’ll make it clearer. Do you talk about your lack of body parts in public and use that to support your views on the rights of transwomen overriding the rights of natal women?

Why Mollygo? Is this thread invitation only? I did suggest on another occasion that if you wanted a private space, perhaps an open forum wasn't the place for it.

Your opinion about the female sex MG, not mine. You know that.

I don't see the sexes as binary Doodledog. There are many variants (as I've said before and am not going to bother to explain again).

Our culture divides people into opposites as far as sex goes. Our bodies don't.

I didn't say I was/wasn't born female. But yes, I am vocal. I stand by my opinions. I spoke to my partner about the attitudes on here about this issue last week and he was horrified too. And he is pretty staid usually.

I just knew you’d pop up again Gagajo.
If you weren’t born as female sex, you don’t turn into a woman whatever you call yourself.
If you opt to be a transwoman and don’t use your change to cause trouble, go for it, call yourself what you like.
Most trans of either gender don’t change to cause problems for others, they change to make themselves feel ‘right’.
They don’t feel the need to broadcast it or to use their change of status to impact on or affect those whose sex at birth is what they aspire to be. Those trans who stir up trouble are doing more to harm transwomen than any other group in society.
So if you’re actually saying you weren’t born female, are you as vocal in real life as you are on GN, or do you keep your body private and feel it’s no one else’s business?

But do you see them as female?

Doodledog

Do you think that transwomen are female? The word 'woman' has become a negotiable concept these days.

Transwomen are women.

I have no uterus. I'm a woman. My boobs aren't real. I'm a woman.

It isn't what is under my clothes that makes me one. It's what is in my head.

I've always said transwomen are women

Impossible unless they've had gender reassignment op. If they've still got full tackle, he's a man.