Shemima Begum

PippaZ
I think there are some posts that, in the end, you just have to ignore
So why didn’t you??!

tickingbird

^She was radicalised here, and failed by our police and government^

I think that’s one of the most ridiculous statements I’ve read on this forum.

It’s typical of certain elements of UK society to constantly shift blame. First and foremost, if anyone failed this woman it was her family. and the culture SHE was brought up in. Instead of blaming the government and the police, maybe stop prohibiting them from doing their jobs. If they weren’t so shackled by the ones screaming racism and human rights abuses they could probably have put a stop to a lot of this so called grooming.

I think there are some posts that, in the end, you just have to ignore.

Mollygo

GrannyGravy13

PippaZ this thread is becoming a good illustration of why Ms. Begum should be brought to trial in a neutral Country. I doubt very much if it would be possible to find a truly impartial jury here in the U.K.

Good point GG13.
I’m still not sure what she can be tried for. Whatever she did was not a crime in the country where she was.

Although I see what you are saying GrannyGravy I can't see how it would work. Even if it were in another country, it would have to be under UK law. It would also have to be with a jury of her "peers".

It is then for the lawyers to put forward their case and the Judge to direct the jury to reach their judgement on only what they have heard.

If such a trial can't be facilitated here, how could it be done just by taking it to another country?

I think a prosecutor can apply to have a trial without a jury. It is then decided by a Judge or Judges (not too sure on this point). However, such a judgement could well be unacceptable to the very people and views you referred to.

Mollygo as I wrote before:

Shemima did break a law. The year before she left, Home Secretary Theresa May had exercised powers under Section 3 of the Terrorism Act 2000, to make Isis a proscribed organisation.

Having anything to do with the group was punishable by up to 10 years in prison or a fine. This has not been argued in court so we do not know where she would fall on this scale. They would have to take into account her age, her understanding and any coercive control involved.

If there is any other evidence, rather than hearsay, that she did anything else that would come up too. But so far not one has offered any charge against her. The government just broke International Law to keep her out - that too might have to be taken into account.

She was radicalised here, and failed by our police and government

I think that’s one of the most ridiculous statements I’ve read on this forum.

It’s typical of certain elements of UK society to constantly shift blame. First and foremost, if anyone failed this woman it was her family. and the culture SHE was brought up in. Instead of blaming the government and the police, maybe stop prohibiting them from doing their jobs. If they weren’t so shackled by the ones screaming racism and human rights abuses they could probably have put a stop to a lot of this so called grooming.

GrannyGravy13

PippaZ this thread is becoming a good illustration of why Ms. Begum should be brought to trial in a neutral Country. I doubt very much if it would be possible to find a truly impartial jury here in the U.K.

Good point GG13.
I’m still not sure what she can be tried for. Whatever she did was not a crime in the country where she was.

PippaZ this thread is becoming a good illustration of why Ms. Begum should be brought to trial in a neutral Country. I doubt very much if it would be possible to find a truly impartial jury here in the U.K.

Oldwoman70

Saying she didn't know what ISIS was like goes against her claim she was "groomed" by the various websites, some of which would show the atrocities. These websites would not be easy to find so why did she seek them out? If she had questions why not discuss them with her local Imam, parents or other adults?

I have no doubt she knew exactly what ISIS was about and is still a supporter who, if allowed back, will attempt to indoctrinate other young people.

You are not a lawyer or a judge. You have not seen the evidence properly presented. You (and I) are not in a position to decide. Whether you "think" Shemima Begum "knew about Isis" or not is irrelevant. She should not lose her human rights to be tried by a court of law whatever all the Oldwoman70s of this country think. The general public is not "fit and proper" to decide your future, my future or Shemima Begum's future concerning a legal issue. She needs to be brought back and allowed to put her case. Whether she wins or not should be decided by that law and not by the likes of you and me on Gransnet.

PippaZ Thanks for your comprehensive post.
Oldwoman70 It is very easy to find things on the net and once you have found one it is easy to find many. Teenage girls are especially vulnerable to religious and spiritual propaganda. The Catholic church used to recruit teenagers as nuns.
Part of grooming is to make sure the victim never confides in other adults.

Saying she didn't know what ISIS was like goes against her claim she was "groomed" by the various websites, some of which would show the atrocities. These websites would not be easy to find so why did she seek them out? If she had questions why not discuss them with her local Imam, parents or other adults?

I have no doubt she knew exactly what ISIS was about and is still a supporter who, if allowed back, will attempt to indoctrinate other young people.

rafichagran

GrannyGravy13

PippazZ the shouty ones

Who are the shouty ones are the posters who disagree with you?

I would say so Grannygravy I dont agree with with what Pippa posted, but her opinions are her pererogative. I dont think SB should be allowed back in Great Britain, I am merely stating this and not shouting.
I did find that statement a bit patronising and the post comes across that she doing what she is accusing others of.

I can see you are not shouting rafichagran and you say it is just your opinion.

So, what would your answer be to Mollygo's question? What has she done? And mine "what law has she broken?"

I have to presume those who don't feel she should be allowed to come home, regardless of the law, favour the court of public opinion as judge and jury. I find that extremely dangerous and the reason why we base our democracy on the law in the first place.

Shemima did break a law. The year before she left, Home Secretary Theresa May had exercised powers under Section 3 of the Terrorism Act 2000, to make Isis a proscribed organisation.

Having anything to do with the group was punishable by up to 10 years in prison or a fine. This has not been argued in court so we do not know where she would fall on this scale. They would have to take into account her age, her understanding and any coercive control involved.

However, when Shemima Begum left the UK police said she had committed no offences and would not be treated as a terrorist. This too would have to be taken into account.

All we know for sure is that aged 15, she married a 23-year-old Dutch convert in a ceremony that would not be recognised as legal in Dutch or British law. Whether this act, in itself breaks British law is dubious. Again, if is to be used against her it needs to be tested in court.

As far as I can see all other suggestions of what she did or didn't do are unsubstantiated.

There is also a lengthy argument to say that the government broke International law by making Shemima stateless. That also needs to be tried in court.

Shamima was born in England. She was radicalised here, and failed by our police and government. She is our responsibility.

Shamima was interviewed by counter-terrorism police - because a friend had joined Isis - without her parents being told. She was not referred to the "Prevent" anti-terror scheme. Both these acts were unlawful.

According to what the government told Parliament when she left for Syria it took 2 days for the Foreign Office to warn the Turkish government, by way of an overnight email. It was 3 days before police arranged a BBC appeal, and 4 for the information to be given to Interpol.

As a child, and as a victim of international trafficking, grooming, and forced marriage. Shamima should have been protected by international law, the United Nations, and the UK government.

In legislation Shamima is a victim of child abuse, has a right to lifelong anonymity, and whoever trafficked or forced her into marriage overseas can be tried and jailed in the UK.

Whatever the outcome we all deserve to the trial in a proper court of law. Not in the media or on Gransnet by those whose opinion can never, for the sake of us all, be counted as law.

GrannyGravy13

PippazZ the shouty ones

Who are the shouty ones are the posters who disagree with you?

I would say so Grannygravy I dont agree with with what Pippa posted, but her opinions are her pererogative. I dont think SB should be allowed back in Great Britain, I am merely stating this and not shouting.
I did find that statement a bit patronising and the post comes across that she doing what she is accusing others of.

So what can she be charged with? What did she do here?

Allsorts

If she comes back she will be make a lot of money selling her story. She was a stupid 15 year old out for adventure, she knew it was wrong. Nothing for her where she is so it’s sunk in what a mess she’s made, she’s sorry for herself and will say what she has go to get back here. I don’t think I would trust her, yet I know many others have done the same and come back and lots of fifteen year olds mess up big time. Should she come back I don’t think she should profit for what she’s done.

If she is found not guilty of whatever charges can be brought against her she may be able to make money. If she is found guilty she will not, in law, be able to profit from her crime.

Oops *Afghanistan not Iran (flipping iPhone)

PippaZ

GrannyGravy, I hate to comment, but either you have stopped writing in understandable sentences, or my comprehension has gone down to zero.

No idea, I do know that Ms.Begum and her situation is like a tinder box waiting to explode, which is why folks have strong and differing opinions.

I really feel for all those victims of Daesh and their families (our AC has been deployed in Iraq, Iran and other hot spots ) I understand those who want Ms.Begum to rot where she is , but my logical head tells me that this is wrong and that she should be given a chance to put her side to a jury. I, you and probably all of GN have no idea what the intelligence services know/have evidence of. It’s a dichotomy, Ms.Begum’s rights versus the safety of 66+million U.K. citizens?

In my opinion if/when she is free in the U.K., she will need a new identity, 24/7 surveillance (for her protection) her life will never be normal by everyday standards. She may never find happiness or peace as we know it, another life ruined by Daesh and their evil ideologies.

If she comes back she will be make a lot of money selling her story. She was a stupid 15 year old out for adventure, she knew it was wrong. Nothing for her where she is so it’s sunk in what a mess she’s made, she’s sorry for herself and will say what she has go to get back here. I don’t think I would trust her, yet I know many others have done the same and come back and lots of fifteen year olds mess up big time. Should she come back I don’t think she should profit for what she’s done.

GrannyGravy, I hate to comment, but either you have stopped writing in understandable sentences, or my comprehension has gone down to zero.

PippazZ the shouty ones

Who are the shouty ones are the posters who disagree with you?

Sorry tickingbird I stand corrected.

trisher

^The age of criminal responsibility in the U.K. is 10, she was 15 when she left so legally old enough to know and be aware of her actions^
Wasn't much the same said about the girls groomed and abused in Rochdale?-they 'chose' to be prostitutes.
A girl of 15 cannot marry, cannot have sex, cannot drink. She has the right to protection under the UN Charter of Children's Rights which the UK has signed up to and which they consistently fail to enforce.

I'm sure it was trisher

As it is, we do not have a blanket age of criminal responsibility in England, NI and Wales usually persons aged 10–11 will only be imprisoned in very serious cases, such as murder. Even more so the outcome for youth (12–17) criminal proceedings are usually age categorised (currently it will depend on whether the offender is under 12, under 14, under 16 or under 18, with the older the offender the more severity of punishment, especially for serious crimes).

You still first have to prove that young people know what they are doing was wrong.

The shouty ones can go on with their reasons why they believe she knew what she was doing but thankfully they are not our courts of law.

Chewbacca

^I like being angry, telling people what to do and getting people to agree I'm above others" crowd^

The ignorance and irony of that post is just staggering. The families of the thousands of civilians and military personnel across the world who have been killed and maimed, by the very same terrorist organisation that Shamima Begum supported, until she became more concerned with saving her own skin, have every damned right to be angry.
As for telling people what to do and getting people to agree I'm above others - I find that rather ironic coming from PippaZ to be honest! The only part of that post that I do agree with is that Begum is our responsibility and should be brought back to the UK to face the courts. It's a moot point as to whether we would actually ever get to hear the truth though.

None of your reply shows my post to be either ignorant or arrogant. Those people exist. I was speaking to one of them yesterday (or rather being spoken to) and there are plenty on here.

I'm afraid the "thousands of civilians and military personnel across the world ..." do not have the right to take away the human rights of someone else. Clearly their's is a very different anger to the one I was talking, as I am sure you know. They would be worth the time to listen to and care. Those shouting the odds just to hear their own voices are not.

Sorry Whatdayisit you’re getting confused here. Fred West was never tried. He committed suicide. Nothing to do with the Great British justice system as you put it.

Someone will be tickingbid (making money)
Trisher Not the subjects of the programme though. Do you feel the same about the Stephen tv series! Maybe his parents are making money? Moot point either way as you seemed to be indicating Begum would be earning a living as some kind of celebrity hawking her story to the highest bidder. Highly unlikely.

Why no comparison? they murdered people showed no remorse. The Government tried them and fhey were both found guilty in the Great British justice System. Without that trial they could have killed so many more.

tickingbird

^There is a programme on at the moment about Fred and Rose West, what about their victim's families? I wonder how many GNers are watching it? If you do watch such programmes it is unfair to blame the media or Shemima for the money they make^

I’ve no idea Trisher I have no interest in Fred and Rose West. I’ve heard enough over the years but they definitely aren’t making money from this programme. He’s dead and she’s in prison for life. There’s no comparison with Ms Begum!

Someone will be tickingbid (making money)

Sorry, I did say "human trafficking"

I know more about how children are groomed by abusers than I would ever want to