Staying on topic- threads in general

Then what on earth are we arguing about.

Yay trans people, we love and accept them

Now what's for dinner?

We are working class, our parents and even grandparents worked split shifts!

I haven't seen one post on this thread from anyone saying they don't accept trans people, not one.

Trisha, you posted your family history and comments about the working classes. So did I. My paternal grandfather’s own father was a but if a bar steward. Their mum suffered as a result. Her six sons broke that abusive mould, as many of the young men I know are doing

Thanks VioletSky I needed a laugh!

I gave up trying to figure out what the points were and why they were an excuse to not accept trans people ages ago.

Iam64

Doodledog - do not shoot yourself. Amongst many great posters, you stand out as being able to stay the course, argue effectively and you never lose your s*

Trisha- I don’t enjoy disagreeing with you at every turn but here I go. I find your stereotypical 50’s working class dad’s doesn’t fit easily. Anecdotally, my mum, aunties, grannies etc never ever used dad as a threat, they dealt with all the stuff and life went on.
My grandfather dob 1888 embroidered and knitted. Some learned in the trenches of ww1. He cooked, cleaned, hoovered and was actively involved in my dad’s care. This continued with his grandchildren. My maternal grandfather was the prime giver, despite f.t work because my gran had m.h. Problems, these days probably known as bi polar.
My dad worked long hours. He cooked Sunday breakfast and on our self catering holidays shared the cooking with mum
Apologies for personal anecdotes. My experience though is many friends had similar experiences

Yes most young men I know are active fathers. Research continues to show women do the bulk of domestic duties

Well I supposeit depends on the sort of people you knew in the 50s and 60s. I wouldn't dream of calling my family typical. If I did you'd all be up in arms anyway. At one time my mum earned more than my dad but that was because she was a great sales person. I hate to do this because it's a bit "yorkshire man ish" but I'm amazed your grandad hoovered I can vividly remember my mum buying our first vacuum cleaner. She didn't like Hoover and brought an Electrolux. Both my grandparents would be well into their 60s before they got one. Ours was the first in the family it would be about 1958.
As for the men doing their share why would you post about it if it was the norm? It wasn't
I'm not sure what I'm supposed to gather from your family history.

Doodledog all I can say is I admire your persistance and your dedication in trying to put me down. I'm sure if I chose to I could go through all your posts take things out of context and use them to prove something or other. Quite frankly I CBA. So assume you've won or acheived whatever reason you choose to post convoluted and lengthy posts for. For me the matter remains quite simple human rights matter and I have yet to see any society which was improved by restricting those rights and most societies that practise discrimination begin by targetting one group and then moving on to others. IF you discriminate against trans people who will be next? You may think you are being quite reasonable, but the alliances and forces behind such discrimination are certainly not.
.

Don't do it Doodledog, just think of the mess you'll make!!!

Just in case you're undecided, here's some more bribery .

Doodledog - do not shoot yourself. Amongst many great posters, you stand out as being able to stay the course, argue effectively and you never lose your s*

Trisha- I don’t enjoy disagreeing with you at every turn but here I go. I find your stereotypical 50’s working class dad’s doesn’t fit easily. Anecdotally, my mum, aunties, grannies etc never ever used dad as a threat, they dealt with all the stuff and life went on.
My grandfather dob 1888 embroidered and knitted. Some learned in the trenches of ww1. He cooked, cleaned, hoovered and was actively involved in my dad’s care. This continued with his grandchildren. My maternal grandfather was the prime giver, despite f.t work because my gran had m.h. Problems, these days probably known as bi polar.
My dad worked long hours. He cooked Sunday breakfast and on our self catering holidays shared the cooking with mum
Apologies for personal anecdotes. My experience though is many friends had similar experiences

Yes most young men I know are active fathers. Research continues to show women do the bulk of domestic duties

The cake would be lovely, please.

(and thank you for talking me down)

While I can understand the temptation, please don't! We need your logical reasoned posts. choose your bribe of preference

The square root of bugger all.

trisher
. . . . it isn't actually the erasure of women the pronoun change is ushering in it's the abandonment of gender norms.

me
Gender norms are being reinforced, of course, each time someone insists on a change of pronoun or a ‘change’ of gender.

trisher (posting google images of a drag artist supposedly challenging gender norms by wearing clothing usually associated with women, but IMO reinforcing said norms as they are exaggerations of female presentation)

Challenging gender roles. He's a man in a dress. He's a drag queen. He's not trans!

trisher (posting a google image of a woman in a trouser suit)

Challenging gender roles- woman in a suit- she's not trans!

me
yes, I know the difference between drag and trans. And between transvestism and transsexuality.And between 'gender bending' fashion and either of the above.

trisher
So do you agree that gender norms are now being challenged Doodledog? That more men are now taking responsibility for childcare and what were once called "women's jobs"

me
I don't think that it has to do with trans at all. Gender norms are not always challenged - they morph with time and over cultures, usually for political reasons. Shared childcare responsibilities are more likely to be a result of the need for both parents to earn a living, and of fewer women being prepared to be financially dependent.

trisher
AS for the "its' because both parents are working" argument some of it may be true but I think there are a significant number of young men who love their children and actually want to be actively involved in raising them. It's a step towards men being caring and emotional, something which they were expected in the past to reign in.

me
Yes, men are better able to make that choice now, but not because they are individually challenging gender norms, or because young men love their children more than previous generations, but because of changes to political policies which made those choices possible.

trisher
Do you really not understand that for my dad's generation caring for your children was seen as weak and unmasculine, that many women brought into this and used fathers as disciplinarians?*

me
Yes, gender norms evolve, but just as they changed during the war, and changed back again afterwards, in many cases they are driven by changes in political thinking and economics, every bit as much as by changes in individuals.

trisher
So exactly what have transpeople to do with changing gender norms?

me (shoots self)

So exactly what have transpeople to do with changing gender norms?

So how many people do you think your husband discussed the birth with Doodledog?. Of course men were thrilled to have children it's the talking openly about the subject and their feelings which is progress.

The dads in the NCT group had regular discussions about their feelings, and it was 30 years ago. What has this to do with anything?

What you describe as my 'assertions' are simply my opinions - I'm not 'shifting' or 'admitting' or defending anything. This is getting really wearing, as what my husband or your parents did is anecdotal at best, and it feels like you are desperately clutching at straws now.

The point of the post you are trying to pick holes in was that gender norms are not changing because of trans issues - they have always shifted, and they vary hugely between different cultural and sub-cultural groups. At least some of that is because of political and economic circumstances, and some of it will simply be that some individuals are less conformist than others, or are bound by less rigid social pressures.

(this post was brought to you by the word 'some')

Btw before I am pulled up on this, my comment it is not to be confused with homosexuals who practice safe anal sex without causing injury to one another.

Why am I posting this on Gransnet

Unfortunately it's linked to injuries to females of a sexual nature, especially due to the normalisation of anal sex in porn

Yes it damages everyone in my view.

So how many people do you think your husband discussed the birth with Doodledog?. Of course men were thrilled to have children it's the talking openly about the subject and their feelings which is progress.
Galaxy It wasn't me who started discussing gender norms. I realise there have always been caring men, but I do think now young men are doing more and talking more about families and children. I don't imagine this is in anyway much to do with. transpeople. I realise that gender dysphoria is completely a seperate issue. Still it's interesting to see how Doodledog shifts when her assertions are questioned.
Your comments about porn are interesting I remember in the 2010s some news items about how women were making their own porn films. It does seem to have died out. I looked on line and found a Guardian artice from 2011 there was a link to a female director she was called Erika Lust- I decided she probably wasn't real. Quite what the situation is now I'm not sure. I think most porn isn't female friendly. I don't think it harms just women, its effect on teenage boys is terrible.

trisher what point are you trying to make about gender norms?
We know that those change and that sex does not.
Wanting to identify with different gender norms than the currently usual ones for a particular sex doesn't mean that a person is actually the opposite sex.

It's astonishing that so many people, in society generally, seem unable to understand that.

(My grandmother, in the early 1900s, made sure to teach domestic work to her 6 sons, as well as to her 2 daughters. My dad was very happy to continue doing these things and I also remember him spending a lot of time playing/teaching/generally looking after me when I was under 5.)

Also, new dads have surely always been over the moon and excited about the birth of their children. My husband was at the birth of both of mine, and whereas that was not allowed in my father's day, I have no reason to assume that he wasn't excited about the birth of his children.

Not agreeing does not automatically equate to not understanding, trisher.

Yes, gender norms evolve, but just as they changed during the war, and changed back again afterwards, in many cases they are driven by changes in political thinking and economics, every bit as much as by changes in individuals.

And it’s not about ‘admitting’ anything. Disagreeing with you is not a crime.

Trisher you do know most of us live with men we arent in some sort of segregated group .

I am not really clear what men being involved with their children has to do with anything. Many things are better for women if that's the point you are making, and some things are worse, the consumption of porn has led to real difficulties for young women which werent faced by previous generations. I have just seen a t shirt for women which says choke me as if you hate me.

Doodledog

*Gender roles have changed*

Indeed. They are not innate. They are not immutable. They change with time, place and culture, which is the point I was making. It was, IMO, because of the Equal pay legislation that more men could stay at home with their children, and not, as trisher would have it, that there are a significant number of young men who love their children and actually want to be actively involved in raising them. It's a step towards men being caring and emotional, something which they were expected in the past to reign in..

Yes, men are better able to make that choice now, but not because they are individually challenging gender norms, or because young men love their children more than previous generations, but because of changes to political policies which made those choices possible.

Do you really not understand that for my dad's generation caring for your children was seen as weak and unmasculine, that many women brought into this and used fathers as disciplinarians? (Wait till your father gets home!). (Now I'm going to be accused of denegrating women again) But that is how it was.
Apparently now it's legislation and not both parents working that changed things.
My mother was challenging gender norms 60+ years ago, when she taught my brother to cook (he stopped when he got married) and when she became probably the first travelling saleswoman in E. Yorkshire.
Why not jut admit that men are changing- not all men of course but a significant number? I spent an interesting afternoon last week discussing the birth of their babies with two new dads. They were both over the moon and very emotional about the whole event.

Gender roles have changed

Indeed. They are not innate. They are not immutable. They change with time, place and culture, which is the point I was making. It was, IMO, because of the Equal pay legislation that more men could stay at home with their children, and not, as trisher would have it, that there are a significant number of young men who love their children and actually want to be actively involved in raising them. It's a step towards men being caring and emotional, something which they were expected in the past to reign in..

Yes, men are better able to make that choice now, but not because they are individually challenging gender norms, or because young men love their children more than previous generations, but because of changes to political policies which made those choices possible.