Staying on topic- threads in general

Challenging gender roles- woman in a suit- she's not trans!

Challenging gender roles. He's a man in a dress. He's a drag queen. He's not trans

Gender norms are so socially based that they can be changed overnight, such as is happening in Afghanistan now, or happened in WW2, when women were encouraged to work outside the home, and after the war, when they were encouraged to be ‘housewives’ and give the jobs back to men.

These 180° turn arounds in the 'expectations' of gender norms illustrate perfectly why we should just do away with them completely. In both illustrations it is men who are determining what should be the norm. What a surprise!

In answer to your question Doodledog I would say yes, body dysmorphia ie being revolted by and finding nothing but fault with your body is different.

The source/sources of revulsion are often not discernible to anyone else. The body they have isn't the wrong body, it's wrong.

Another well written, informative and thought provoking post; thank you.

Doodledog

Where do the notions that being called ‘she’ goes along with wearing certain clothes, or having certain hairstyles, or shaving your legs, or whatever, and that these ‘presentational’ things are what makes you a certain gender come from?

Gender norms amongst humans are socially determined and culturally specific - they are not ‘natural’ or inherent. I don’t understand how people can ‘know that they are in the ‘wrong’ body’. They are in their body - if there is a clash between the gender norms that society has decided are appropriate for someone of their sex and the way they would prefer to behave, isn’t the answer to defy the gender norms, rather than attempt to change their sex?

Gender norms change across cultures and over time? Look at the way that they have changed in our own lifetimes, and the difference between cultures in other societies and cultural groups within our own.

Gender norms are so socially based that they can be changed overnight, such as is happening in Afghanistan now, or happened in WW2, when women were encouraged to work outside the home, and after the war, when they were encouraged to be ‘housewives’ and give the jobs back to men.

Fashions change, too. Boys in dresses were once the norm, and women in trousers an aberration. There is nothing ‘natural’ about any of it, so how is there a deep-seated need to conform to one set or the other? Why not break up the way norms are assigned to ‘sets’ as in the above examples and pick and mix at will?

If people are revolted by their bodies in genuine dysmorphia, that is different, isn’t it? That is a question, not a statement, incidentally. It still has to be a learnt response to their body though, doesn’t it, as gender norms vary so much?

I suppose if you haven't met or experienced someone who feels they are in the wrong body and the absolute certainty of that for them, you might not be aware. But questioning the reality of this, dismissing it as just "shaving your legs" or having certain hairstyles" is simply not acceptable. Why would you question that?
And young people do defy gender norms all the time. It doesn't have the slightest thing to do with gender dysphoria which like it or not is recognised by the medical profession
The idea that everything would be OK if boys just wore dresses is ridiculous. Can you imagine any other condition being dismissed in this way. It reminds me of the way people used to talk about mental illness- there's nothing wrong with you. Just pull yourself together.
FYI www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

Where do the notions that being called ‘she’ goes along with wearing certain clothes, or having certain hairstyles, or shaving your legs, or whatever, and that these ‘presentational’ things are what makes you a certain gender come from?

Gender norms amongst humans are socially determined and culturally specific - they are not ‘natural’ or inherent. I don’t understand how people can ‘know that they are in the ‘wrong’ body’. They are in their body - if there is a clash between the gender norms that society has decided are appropriate for someone of their sex and the way they would prefer to behave, isn’t the answer to defy the gender norms, rather than attempt to change their sex?

Gender norms change across cultures and over time? Look at the way that they have changed in our own lifetimes, and the difference between cultures in other societies and cultural groups within our own.

Gender norms are so socially based that they can be changed overnight, such as is happening in Afghanistan now, or happened in WW2, when women were encouraged to work outside the home, and after the war, when they were encouraged to be ‘housewives’ and give the jobs back to men.

Fashions change, too. Boys in dresses were once the norm, and women in trousers an aberration. There is nothing ‘natural’ about any of it, so how is there a deep-seated need to conform to one set or the other? Why not break up the way norms are assigned to ‘sets’ as in the above examples and pick and mix at will?

If people are revolted by their bodies in genuine dysmorphia, that is different, isn’t it? That is a question, not a statement, incidentally. It still has to be a learnt response to their body though, doesn’t it, as gender norms vary so much?

Sorry FarNorth but most transgender people I know or watch online, my brain gives them the pronoun they have asked for based on the evidence it is seeing, even knowing they are trans.

I feel as if the article you shared is more likely to partially explain the reaction of those who cannot accept trans people. Being already wary of trans people they may be looking deeper than I do.

I can see how difficult it could be for people who knew that person before transition and I can even see it as being halmful to them but it must be just as halmful to feel like one set of pronouns suits you and then be constantly given others.

Aren't we all doing that wrong? Trans people are basing their reactions on how they identify and see themselves, a lot of the time others are basing their reactions on people they don't really know.

I also see so many problematic approaches in a lot of places where these things are being discussed too, telling trans allies what they think, how they feel, what they meant, who they must be as people for caring about the needs of trans people.

That hurts my head the most.

FarNorth

It's the abandonment of recognising sex differences, where they are relevant.
Of course it gets easier to do. That's how grooming works.

It's a mental exercise like croswords or sudoko why on earth bring "grooming" into it?

Gender norms are being reinforced, of course, each time someone insists on a change of pronoun or a ‘change’ of gender.

To get close to any ‘abandonment’ of gender norms we would have to stop thinking that there is a male and female way of ‘presenting’, and let people pick and mix without their choices being linked to sex.

The whole notion of gender-based ‘presentation’ reinforces stereotypes and takes us further from a fluid society. As it is, my ‘presentation’ varies. I have presented as a quite ‘girly’ woman with make-up and heels, casually in jeans and baggy jumpers, a hippy with long hair and a long-haired boyfriend, briefly as a punk, and so on (much of that in my younger days, when my ‘presentation changed regularly). Most people change the way they look - there are whole industries depending on it.

For decades parents have been able to offer their children a range of toys that used to be gendered- I did with my children and it was not unusual. Why can’t we extend that principle to include a wider range of areas, and work towards getting rid of gender ‘presentation’ altogether.

IMO that would be far more progressive than clinging to the idea that these norms are somehow inherently male or female and that people have to ‘change’ to use them, or to make a declaration that they are ‘neutral’ in line with what most people are quietly doing already.

It's the abandonment of recognising sex differences, where they are relevant.
Of course it gets easier to do. That's how grooming works.

FarNorth

If you think using wrong pronouns is the polite thing to do (and you are not trisher who has scoffed at this article previously) please read this article.

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

^"One of the biggest obstacles to halting the stampede over women’s rights is pronoun and preferred name ‘courtesy’. People severely underestimate the psychological impact to themselves, and to others, of compliance."^

I "scoffed" (questioned?) this article on two grounds. The first colour exercise is mental gymnastics and like all exercises the more you do it the easier it gets and I've seen it a few times.
and The whole article relies on the change being primarily "he" to "she" when there is now plenty of evidence that "she" to "he" is becoming more common. In other words there are more women requesting a change of pronoun than men. When you add in non-binary and those asking for "they" the number increases even more. So it isn't actually the erasure of women the pronoun change is ushering in it's the abandonment of gender norms. So that's my scoffing.

Chewbacca

Don't think anybody wants Nutella.

Don't be so sure.

If you think using wrong pronouns is the polite thing to do (and you are not trisher who has scoffed at this article previously) please read this article.

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

"One of the biggest obstacles to halting the stampede over women’s rights is pronoun and preferred name ‘courtesy’. People severely underestimate the psychological impact to themselves, and to others, of compliance."

Transmen because they may be registered as men were missing out. It was therefore decided to advertise to ensure they got the information and the term "person with a cervix" was used. This nothing to do with transwomen. It isn't a barrier for immigrants or women speaking other languages because all women will be called for screening.

You can't be sure that all will be called for screening. People move around and/or may not be registered with a GP.
Seeing a poster addressed to 'Women' might alert them to the need for a check up, where seeing 'People with a Cervix' is less likely to do so.
The poster could say 'Women and People with a Cervix' if the aim was genuinely to be inclusive.

In any case, it's completely ludicrous that trans people get themselves registered with the wrong sex on their medical records.
It's carrying their delusion too far.

Well, to be fair, all gender/sex seems to be so fluid these days she may well have changed her mind by now anyway.

I can’t remember, Chewbacca. These days, as soon as I’ve finished a book, it’s as though it never existed, because I forget about it. Only the mention of JM made me recall I’d read it.

Okaaay SueDonim did she say what she "actually was"? I think there was a thread in the Sex and Gender discussiin form on MN about her. It was interesting.

I recently read Jan Morris’s book Conundrum. She says in it that she didn’t believe she actually was a woman.

Don't think anybody wants Nutella.

I don’t mind the terms trans women or trans men I just reserve the right to use the term woman.

Hands off the Nutella one.

I just made bacon sandwiches

<<and we all budge over>>

Can I join you. I have delicious sugared almonds and some ouzo brought back from a small Greek island

Got some homemade damson gin that's around 4 years old? It packs a punch! And I've made a slab of sticky parkin today. It's heavy enough to be used as a missile so should be useful.