M&S diversity officers give staff pronoun badges……. a step too far?

I was shopping in M and S recently and I went to find my DH who was trying on some trousers in the Men’s Changing Room, as I reached the entrance a male assistant warned me that it was the Men’s Changing Room. Clearly women aren’t allowed in the MCR and quite right too. I was only going to call to him.

So does someone identifying as a man have the right to use the MCR ?

What’s the situation with the Ladies and Gents in M and S?

It’s so confusing and I find rather frightening.

I prefer people don't observe my sex but each to their own

I think gender is oppressive for men and women so I wouldnt be happy for anyone to assume my gender. I am fine with people observing my sex.

Chewbacca

But I, as a customer, don't need to know what their personal pecadilloes are do I? I'm not going to address them as anything other than "you", say please and thank you and then leave. I think it's unprofessional to drag gender politics into the work place, especially when it's of no interest or benefit to the paying customer. Is a badge with a pronoun really going to provide "validation" or "authentication" for how someone wants to live their private life? Really?

Because for you or I and most people, we go out and we are generally happy for people to assume our gender. It doesn't cause us any issues.

If I were to be misgendered I would not have any fear correcting them.

For a trans person, correcting others comes with a fear. Fear that they will not be accepted or be subject to outright hostility.

These badges not only help them feel safer but allies are wearing them too, which means that the chances of being challenged on their gender is reduced.

Also there are mental health issues tied to being born in a different body to how you feel. Being misgendered can be painful and bring those issues back to light.

So there are lots of reasons why and they are all positive.

Cross post Galaxy

But I, as a customer, don't need to know what their personal pecadilloes are do I? I'm not going to address them as anything other than "you", say please and thank you and then leave. I think it's unprofessional to drag gender politics into the work place, especially when it's of no interest or benefit to the paying customer. Is a badge with a pronoun really going to provide "validation" or "authentication" for how someone wants to live their private life? Really?

So if I worked for M & S (and I would be as rubbish at that as making bribes) would it be ok to show me respect by referring me to me as adult human female for example as indicated on my badge. I think that would be an interesting legal dilemma.

This does not apply if you self id as anything else that you are actually not.

Chewbacca

VioletSky I appreciate that you are unable to solve all the issues around that like bathrooms and changing rooms and prisonsor sports but, as a "trans ally" please could you answer the questions that I raised upthread regarding the apparent need for pronoun badges? I've posted them again here:

Why do we have to be informed of their sex? If it doesn't matter to us; why is there the need to tell us? All customers want to do is go in, buy their stuff, pay and leave. Why do they need to know anything personal about the shop assistant? I could see the relevance of "dyslexic" or "colour blind" on a badge because that could affect how they assist customers. But it still hasn't *explained what benefit providing pronouns is to the customer.*

Because it matters to them that they aren't misgendered and because its respectful to use their preferred pronouns. It also shows that we support them.

That's all I have

Thank goodness because I'd be rubbish at it. I do accept bribes in the form of tea and cake

VioletSky I appreciate that you are unable to solve all the issues around that like bathrooms and changing rooms and prisonsor sports but, as a "trans ally" please could you answer the questions that I raised upthread regarding the apparent need for pronoun badges? I've posted them again here:

Why do we have to be informed of their sex? If it doesn't matter to us; why is there the need to tell us? All customers want to do is go in, buy their stuff, pay and leave. Why do they need to know anything personal about the shop assistant? I could see the relevance of "dyslexic" or "colour blind" on a badge because that could affect how they assist customers. But it still hasn't explained what benefit providing pronouns is to the customer.

It's a simple question.

Nobody thinks its your job to solve the issue of single sex spaces to be honest if I thought it was your job I would be offering you a bribe as we speak.

VioletSky

The other thing is, if they weren't asking to be recognised, if they weren't demanding the same rights we women have demanded over the years, people would be then telling them, they can't really be the gender they identify as because they aren't fighting for it.

It's a no win in some scenarios for trans people but I and many others do value and accept them.

We value and accept them while acknowledging and understanding the fears and struggles of women.

We seek acceptance, compromise and integration into society. Not in a black and white way but in an all of the colours of the rainbow way. In a way where everyone can coexist and feel safe.

Happily.

That just won't change for me. Despite silly articles or statements that work on the basis that trans people should not exist, that they aren't valid, that they are too few to matter, that they are responsible for the bad deeds of the very few etc etc etc. Because they do exist, they are people just like you and I and they aren't going anywhere.

My answer is here, it's in compromise its in finding a way forward that allows trans people to be their authentic selves and allows women to feel safe.

If you want me to solve all the issues around that like bathrooms and changing rooms and prisonsor sports, I don't have all the answers. I think it's up to individual bodies to safeguard their use and make provision for those who use them.

More options basically.

I ask because I want to know what you think

How is me asking a question telling you what you think?

Of you cant understand how the use of pronouns impacts on the issues mentioned I dont know how to help you.

GrannyMacawell

Violetsky do you think , as a trans ally, that a man who who identifies as a women, but is still a biological man should be allowed in the swimming pool communal female changing room?

Oh, I'm sure someone else will tell me or you my actual opinion on that one. I've been told many times what I must think even though I realise women need safe spaces. I've said it many times but it isn't heard anyway because I'm a trans ally and therefor "bad".

Read all the many many other threads on this subject that are basically the same discussion.

I hide them eventually because I get fed up with seeing my name crop up for further interpolation or assertion that I must think xyz

and to answer my question?

Isn't it funny how a simple question like the use of chosen pronouns always results in people posting the same comments about swimming pools, changing rooms or toilets. It just shows that actually there is no real reason for not allowing people to say which pronoun they prefer so something else has to be brought in.

The other thing is, if they weren't asking to be recognised, if they weren't demanding the same rights we women have demanded over the years, people would be then telling them, they can't really be the gender they identify as because they aren't fighting for it.

It's a no win in some scenarios for trans people but I and many others do value and accept them.

We value and accept them while acknowledging and understanding the fears and struggles of women.

We seek acceptance, compromise and integration into society. Not in a black and white way but in an all of the colours of the rainbow way. In a way where everyone can coexist and feel safe.

Happily.

That just won't change for me. Despite silly articles or statements that work on the basis that trans people should not exist, that they aren't valid, that they are too few to matter, that they are responsible for the bad deeds of the very few etc etc etc. Because they do exist, they are people just like you and I and they aren't going anywhere.

GrannyMacawell

Violetsky do you think , as a trans ally, that a man who who identifies as a women, but is still a biological man should be allowed in the swimming pool communal female changing room?

or to do a woman who is disabled personal care where female only personal care s specified?

Pronouns are in the eye of the beholder.

Violetsky do you think , as a trans ally, that a man who who identifies as a women, but is still a biological man should be allowed in the swimming pool communal female changing room?

Its not misuse when trans people are out there, living their lives and just want to do so authentically.