M&S diversity officers give staff pronoun badges……. a step too far?

trisher

Rosie51

I think it would be interesting if there were more information about what transmen really want. It is very difficult to find anything. There are a lot of reasons why their voice might not be being heard You're right we don't encounter posts from transmen all over the internet stating their demands, probably down to female socialisation in the most part. What is stranger is that all those trans allies who scream, demand and threaten violence seldom seem to mention transmen or their needs ........wanders off musing if that's because they're the female sex and therefore still don't matter..........

Well I seem to remember mentioning transmen who want to give birth or who have cervixes and being roundly shouted down about what they want from maternity services and health checks. I seem to remember the same people shouting down these transmen requirements as being (once again) an elimination of women. So are we now saying that transmen should have the rights they are asking for?

Transmen are eligible for exactly the same maternity and female health checks as any other female. The shouting down these transmen requirements was not shouting down their access to these services as you well know. The objection was to the total elimination of female gendered terms such as woman, mother. You really should be able to see the difference trisher it's been explained to you multiple times.

So, other than the passport (which can be changed so that both neither the holders name not their photo shows an obviously male or female person, is there any other way in which they are not being accommodated.

As for the dissembling about cervixes and maternity, you have either missed the point deliberately or you just don't understand; but the point has most definitely been missed.

Cervices are in female bodies. Men don't have them. The issue for feminists is not about transmen giving birth, as they have female bodies. It is about women being referred to as 'people with cervices', 'vagina havers' and so forth. We are not our sexual parts - we are women.

They can have their name changed on their passport to a gender-neutral one.

I am aware that more and more people are identifying as non-binary; but as I say, I don't think I know anyone who conforms exclusively to the norms of one gender or the other. Do you?

Regarding non-binary people - what are they being denied? What changes do they want or need to 'accommodate' them? Isn't pretty much everyone non-binary? Isn't much of feminism about ensuring that both sex and gender-based rights are equal for all?
Currently non-binary people in the UK cannot have a passport indicating they are non-binary (other countries use "x")and have to fill in any documentation using F or M.
There is a private membersbill before parliament to change the passport but it is slow work.

Rosie51

^I think it would be interesting if there were more information about what transmen really want. It is very difficult to find anything. There are a lot of reasons why their voice might not be being heard^ You're right we don't encounter posts from transmen all over the internet stating their demands, probably down to female socialisation in the most part. What is stranger is that all those trans allies who scream, demand and threaten violence seldom seem to mention transmen or their needs ........wanders off musing if that's because they're the female sex and therefore still don't matter..........

Well I seem to remember mentioning transmen who want to give birth or who have cervixes and being roundly shouted down about what they want from maternity services and health checks. I seem to remember the same people shouting down these transmen requirements as being (once again) an elimination of women. So are we now saying that transmen should have the rights they are asking for?

You're right we don't encounter posts from transmen all over the internet stating their demands, probably down to female socialisation in the most part. What is stranger is that all those trans allies who scream, demand and threaten violence seldom seem to mention transmen or their needs ........wanders off musing if that's because they're the female sex and therefore still don't matter.......
Spot on, Rosie.

Regarding non-binary people - what are they being denied? What changes do they want or need to 'accommodate' them? Isn't pretty much everyone non-binary? Isn't much of feminism about ensuring that both sex and gender-based rights are equal for all?

They may 'feel' like women but are still testosterone fuelled...

I think it would be interesting if there were more information about what transmen really want. It is very difficult to find anything. There are a lot of reasons why their voice might not be being heard You're right we don't encounter posts from transmen all over the internet stating their demands, probably down to female socialisation in the most part. What is stranger is that all those trans allies who scream, demand and threaten violence seldom seem to mention transmen or their needs ........wanders off musing if that's because they're the female sex and therefore still don't matter..........

GrannyMacawell

trisher. can you link to where you got the statistic for transpeople being 50% transmen and 50 % transwomen. .Thanks. .I can't find it!

The link to the survey in the UK is above.
There is little more research here available. A US study found equal numbers pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33644314/

Galaxy I think it would be interesting if there were more information about what transmen really want. It is very difficult to find anything. There are a lot of reasons why their voice might not be being heard. I think the question of non-binary people is also of interest as more younger people seem to be opting for this identity. Why is it not acceptable to the authorities and if it was accepted how would things have to change to accommodate people who refuse to comply to gender norms or be identified with one gender?
The whole subject has more and a much wider influence on society and how we live our lives than those who are perpetually shouting about the erosion of women's rights are prepared to admit.

Galaxy

Oh and I would fight tooth and nail for transmen to be housed in female prisons if they want to be, but that's probably my transphobia showing.

That’s a good point, Galaxy. Do transmen want to be housed in male or female prisons? Or to use male facilities of other kinds?

I have no idea, but my guess would be no, as it is not transpeople who are a threat to females - it is men, which is why we have sex-based facilities in the first place, as opposed to gender-based ones.

Oh and I would fight tooth and nail for transmen to be housed in female prisons if they want to be, but that's probably my transphobia showing.

Transition rates of female to Male are very high in young women compared to a few years ago and pretty much non existent in middle age females. It's one of the issues that feminists have suggested would be useful to explore particularly with regards to detransitioning. I am certainly not ignoring transmen.

And there you have it trisher. Because some people or any number of people are claiming discrimination because they (men or TW who are still men to all intents and purposes) are not allowed in women’s safe spaces no matter what the law says, there is a problem.

trisher. can you link to where you got the statistic for transpeople being 50% transmen and 50 % transwomen. .Thanks. .I can't find it!

This once again focusses entirely on transwomen. Currently the numbers of trans men is equal to the number of transwomen. Which means that trans isues cannot completely be categorised as men trying to eliminate women. No doubt it is much simpler to ignore transmen and focus on transwomen but it's not looking at the real picture. Although I can see that it suits some people's prejudices and pre-conceptions.

Oh, 'some people' are back again, are they?

Have the courage of your convictions, trisher. If you are going to have a poke at me, at least be decent enough to do it up front.

My 'prejudices and preconceptions' are no stronger than anyone else's, and nowhere near as near the surface as your own. You constantly put transpeople ahead of women, and constantly pre-judge what I am thinking and why. This is very irritating, and I have asked you not to do it, but you persist.

If my posts foreground transwomen it is because it is they who present a threat to women. Transmen really don't. Nor do transmen threaten men, as on the whole, they are not likely to be physically stronger, and are likely to have been socialised as women and have female hormones.

As a feminist, by instinct is to defend my fellow women against threats from those who want to do us harm, which includes people insinuating themselves into our spaces, removing the definition of what it is to be a woman and making it seem ok (to those who've bought the Kool Aid) for male sex offenders to be locked in cells with women who haven't paid their TV licences or who are addicted to drugs.

I do wish you would stop picking out small parts of posts (in this case that transmen appear to have been forgotten) and ignoring the much more important ones, such as the insanity of the notion that anyone who 'just knows' that they are women is a woman, even though it is only GCF's who seem to have a clue what a woman is.

I know how Alice must have felt when she stepped through the looking glass.

Mollygo

*It’s such a pity that a complicated matter which is worthy of deeper discussion is currently shut down* by any number of people who are adamant that females should have no rights to protect them against those who choose to say they are women for devious purposes.
The actions of those people, posters on here and shouters elsewhere, not only attempt to erode natal women’s rights, but also damage the rights of those TW who genuinely wish to live as women, whose actions cause no concern.

Mollygo if you can post a single message on any GN thread that indicates anyone has said women shouldn't have protection I would like to see it. I don'tbelieve anyone has said any such thing. It is not eroding women's rights to point out that the law currently supports their right to a safe space and the right to deny that space to anyone, even a transwoman with a GRC, if it is felt that women would not use that space or facility if transwomen were admitted. There has been discussion as to why that law has not been enforced. I haven't yet seen a reasonable explanation of this apart from the cry that Stonewall and transwomen have loud voices, although as over 50% of transpeople are transmen it is difficult to see how this is either a priority or how they are influencing the legal system.

Well said MollyGo

It’s such a pity that a complicated matter which is worthy of deeper discussion is currently shut down by any number of people who are adamant that females should have no rights to protect them against those who choose to say they are women for devious purposes.
The actions of those people, posters on here and shouters elsewhere, not only attempt to erode natal women’s rights, but also damage the rights of those TW who genuinely wish to live as women, whose actions cause no concern.

Let's not forget as well non-binary people who currently have no legal right to define as they do, and who there are more of in the younger age bracket
Younger trans respondents were more likely than older respondents to identify as non-binary. For example, 57% of trans respondents under 35 were non-binary compared with 36% of those aged 35 or over. Younger respondents were also more likely to be trans men (26% of trans respondents under 35 were trans men compared with 10% aged 35 or over) and less likely to be trans women (17% of trans respondents under 35 were trans women compared with 54% aged 35 or over). This age profile partly accords with the referral figures to the children and adolescent gender identity services where the majority of referrals in 2016-17 were for people assigned female at birth (1,400 of the 2,016 referrals – 69%)
It is such a pity that a complicated matter which is worthy of deeper discussion is currently shut down with these loud shouts about the elimination of women by men when it is quite obvious that there is much more to the issue.
Quote from www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-lgbt-survey-summary-report/national-lgbt-survey-summary-report

Doodledog

GrannyMacawell

Once you accept that David's pronouns are her\she how are you going to ask her to leave the womans communal changing room? You have already accepted that she is a woman.

This is part of the problem. On their own, it might seem as though pronouns are trivial things that aren't worth getting hung up about, and as I've said, it seems to me that a lot of women have agreed for some time to use ones that don't sit well with them, in order to be accommodating, and to 'be kind', because of female socialisation.

But put pronouns into a bigger picture, and it's clear that actually they are not trivial at all. They are an acceptance that a man can 'become' a woman, and that women as we know them (us) don't exist. We've already seen on this thread that those who support the erasure of women don't even know what a woman is, and worse, they don't think it's important.

You are a woman if you 'just know' you are one, without knowing what it is that you know. If you can also insist on being called 'she', and accuse anyone who gets that wrong (perhaps on account of your beard, your deep voice and male-pattern baldness) of misgendering, and use your 'female' status to access places where women of the adult human female variety are alone and potentially vulnerable (hospital wards, prison wings and so on) you are going to be able, should you so wish, to subject women to significant trauma, particularly if you have a record of sexual assault.

Is it really any wonder that so many of the women who were initially willing to go along with this are now saying that enough's enough?

(and thank you, NanKate ?)

This once again focusses entirely on transwomen. Currently the numbers of trans men is equal to the number of transwomen. Which means that trans isues cannot completely be categorised as men trying to eliminate women. No doubt it is much simpler to ignore transmen and focus on transwomen but it's not looking at the real picture. Although I can see that it suits some people's prejudices and pre-conceptions.

Doodledog

Yes, there is a lot of misogyny amongst TRAs.

`
And the absolute saddest part is the number of natal females who totally reject their sex in favour of the patriarchy, and would advance the cause of men, no matter how they present, in preference to siding with their natural allies.

Yes, there is a lot of misogyny amongst TRAs.

If you look like a man and act like a man and insist on being in women’s supposedly safe spaces, then you must accept that your motives for insisting is suspect. and this is the nub of it. My husband and sons would be mortified if they suspected for one minute that any action of theirs had caused concern, unease or distress to a woman. My husband will cross the street and accelerate his pace to get way in front of a lone woman walking at night. He's doing everything in his power to show her he's not a danger to her. It would seem some people really don't care about any distress they cause just so long as they feel validated. Most men are aware that their very presence can cause unease and accommodate that unease as far as is possible, some men couldn't care less and actually enjoy the power trip, and some of them wear dresses.

As always, the voice of reason Doodledog.

If you look like a man and act like a man and insist on being in women’s supposedly safe spaces, then you must accept that your motives for insisting is suspect. If you appear to be a female and act like a female you are unlikely to be questioned and unlikely to be addressed using what you feel is the wrong pronoun.
I’m still trying to work out when people address a person they are talking to as he or she or even they.
What I do know is that if I felt unsafe because the person in my safe space was obviously male then I would use ‘he’ when reporting it.
The worrying thing is that, with the support of some or ‘any number’ of people including some posters on here, these obvious males are trying to make it a crime not to go along with their pretence.