M&S diversity officers give staff pronoun badges……. a step too far?

Doodledog it’s no use telling some or any number of people that the mangling of the language has already been covered, so no need to do it all again. Their urge to repeat is strong.

No need to be sorry Doodledog I frequently forget to refresh the page before posting to find it's moved on. Your phrase 'mangling of the language' is spot on.

Sorry, Rosie - I wasn't ignoring your post. I left the laptop open at the previous page and replied without realising that the thread had moved on.

trisher

*TRAs, however, would like women to be referred to as 'people with cervices' or 'vagina havers', as some transmen are uncomfortable with the fact that they are, in fact, female, and don't want to be referred to as women.*
No the "people with cervixes" are transmen who because they are registered as male on their health information do not routinely get called in for smear tests like women are. and who don't identfy as women so are "people with cervixes". I thought you believed people could refer to themselves by whatever term they choose.

I couldn't care less what people call themselves. It's when they include others in their mangling of the language that I get annoyed. If transmen want to be called 'people with cervices' that's up to them, but when women are included in that it annoys many, including me, and will potentially exclude women with English as a second or other language, and those with limited biological knowledge, who may not realise that the term applies to them. We've been through all of this, though, so no need to do it all again.

Still, it's good to have had that small point cleared up, instead of the numerous more important points I raised earlier, isn't it?

trisher

*TRAs, however, would like women to be referred to as 'people with cervices' or 'vagina havers', as some transmen are uncomfortable with the fact that they are, in fact, female, and don't want to be referred to as women.*
No the "people with cervixes" are transmen who because they are registered as male on their health information do not routinely get called in for smear tests like women are. and who don't identfy as women so are "people with cervixes". I thought you believed people could refer to themselves by whatever term they choose.

No the "people with cervixes" are transmen so why do they object to "women and people with cervices" on the campaigns encouraging 'people' to present for smear tests. I've read an inordinate number of posts by you where you have argued for the removal of the terms women, mother etc as not inclusive to be replaced with the terms such as people with a cervix, birthing person rtc, do you now agree women should be able to be referred to as women, mothers in this literature? Perhaps for the purpose of health care safety transmen should have their sex marked accurately as F on their medical records with a note that they have a gender identity of M. The reverse of course for transwomen so they are not erroneously called for smear tests they will never need, despite David Lammy being convinced they can grow one with a procedure and hormones.

Incidently "You" is a pronoun which can be used for one or several people . This is commonly known as second person and is often used when addressing others wether singly or collectively it does not mean a post is addressed to any single person

trisher

The fact is that prisons are dangerous places for everyone and violence is not confined to any sex or gender. Risk assessment and supervision should be better for all who are sentenced to any period of imprisonment. Sadly the privatisation and the reduction in numbers of prison staff have made them even less safe. Still let's focus on transpeople and ignore everything else.
It has been suggested that one of the reasons incidents involving transwomen in women's prisons are more numerous is because it is seen as more acceptable to report transwomen whereas reporting a ciswomen for violence is seen as "grassing"
It's sometingthat needs addressing but reducing it to a trans issue is failing so. many other people.

It has been suggested . . . By whom? Source?
What a pile of xxxx
Female violence against females in prisons is an issue but has nothing to do with male, sorry, TW violence against women in women’s prisons.
I don’t have your evident experience of life in prison to know about whether reporting female violence is known as grassing.
I do know that putting TW in female prisons for crimes involving violence against females is wrong.

TRAs, however, would like women to be referred to as 'people with cervices' or 'vagina havers', as some transmen are uncomfortable with the fact that they are, in fact, female, and don't want to be referred to as women.
No the "people with cervixes" are transmen who because they are registered as male on their health information do not routinely get called in for smear tests like women are. and who don't identfy as women so are "people with cervixes". I thought you believed people could refer to themselves by whatever term they choose.

As in male and female sex or gender?

GrannyMacawell

Seriously I don't get non binary. They don't want to conform to gender norms. .that's fine. I don't wear make up or jewellery, I never wear dresses..I have short hair. .am I non binary? why do they need an x on their passport?

Because they don't want an M or an F, you may be happy with it they aren't.

The fact is that prisons are dangerous places for everyone and violence is not confined to any sex or gender. Risk assessment and supervision should be better for all who are sentenced to any period of imprisonment. Sadly the privatisation and the reduction in numbers of prison staff have made them even less safe. Still let's focus on transpeople and ignore everything else.
It has been suggested that one of the reasons incidents involving transwomen in women's prisons are more numerous is because it is seen as more acceptable to report transwomen whereas reporting a ciswomen for violence is seen as "grassing"
It's sometingthat needs addressing but reducing it to a trans issue is failing so. many other people.

Pronoun badges! It beggars belief. What an absolute load of twaddle!

The male estate is the prison buildings where men are housed.

If a transman went in there with a female body it would be dangerous. Similarly, housing transwomen with male bodies in female jails is dangerous for the women prisoners, but many 'transallies' ignore the risk to female prisoners whilst arguing that transmen (who are women who identify as male) should be housed in female jails for their own safety.

Galaxy

Well I have just done a little bit of research (well googled) and from what I can gather there are no transmen held on the Male estate. Presumably because it would be dangerous for them.

Totally confused now. What is the male estate?Why is it dangerous?

Galaxy

Well I have just done a little bit of research (well googled) and from what I can gather there are no transmen held on the Male estate. Presumably because it would be dangerous for them.

I would imagine that it would be dangerous, and for this reason (FWIW) I support their right to be held in facilities appropriate to their sex, as opposed to their gender choice.

It is interesting, however, that in this regard the safety of transmen is taken more seriously than that of women. Or it would be interesting if it weren't so bloody predictable.

Well I have just done a little bit of research (well googled) and from what I can gather there are no transmen held on the Male estate. Presumably because it would be dangerous for them.

If they and trisher would accept the truth that transmen are transmen but remain female and transwomen are transwomen but remain male, there wouldn’t be any need for this discussion. If trans of either identity would fight for rights for them which do not attempt to erode the rights of natal females (and natal males if such issues exist) there wouldn’t be a problem.
In a discussion about perhaps having separate facilities for TW, one (sorry it’s not *any number of*) TW who I wouldn’t have known was a TW if I’d not been told, said she wouldn’t want to be imprisoned or hospitalised with a lot of TW because some of them were dangerous potentially to any TW as well as natal women and it would be preferable to be on a male ward rather than a TW ward.

Doodledog

Rosie51

To whom is your last post addressed trisher? It could be Doodledog or me and in true female socialisation I don't want to impose myself where I wasn't expected.

I am sorry if I spoke out of turn, Rosie. As I've said, I think we are all non-binary to some extent, and I may have forgotten some of my female socialisation for a moment there. I'm wearing jeans today - maybe that's it

No problem Doodledog I love to read your well thought out and clearly expressed posts. I find it baffling that anyone still manages to completely miss the points you're making. My female socialisation has obviously survived my jeans and jumper attire today

trisher

In the spirit of true female socialisation and a non-threatening way I am willing to listen to any answer Rosie51 I do wonder why my posts have to be addressed to one person in particular isn't this an open forum?

You made this post I can see that when it suits you you will ignore anything any transperson requests on the grounds that it doesn't fit your agenda but then to state that they are not being mentioned or their needs met because they are female seems a bit contradictory to me. So which is it are they not being listened to because they are female or are they being ignored because they are trans? You can't have it both ways. It was by the way only your opinion that women were being eliminated I commented that if you believed transmen are women then you were effectively silencing one group of women (because they weren't the right sort of women) to suit another group. the use of 'you' several times in accusatory statements and questions wanting answers doesn't indicate a general post but one directed to an individual. It really helps if you can understand that distinction.

I believe transmen are transmen but remain of the female sex, as you yourself confirmed earlier in this thread when you stated they change gender not sex.
I am not willing to accept transwomen's (or others) requests for the elimination of words such as mother and woman from maternity and health programs, but in no way am I silencing them. I absolutely want them to have full access to maternity and female health screening that may still be applicable to them. My request to them is don't try to eliminate my special words but add in others that you find acceptable. Why is it OK for them to try to deny my request and silence me?
What is abundantly clear is your determination to twist everything around to say what you want. I sometimes disagree with women who are not trans, what do you infer from that?

Rosie51

To whom is your last post addressed trisher? It could be Doodledog or me and in true female socialisation I don't want to impose myself where I wasn't expected.

I am sorry if I spoke out of turn, Rosie. As I've said, I think we are all non-binary to some extent, and I may have forgotten some of my female socialisation for a moment there. I'm wearing jeans today - maybe that's it

trisher

I can see that when it suits you you will ignore anything any transperson requests on the grounds that it doesn't fit your agenda but then to state that they are not being mentioned or their needs met because they are female seems a bit contradictory to me. So which is it are they not being listened to because they are female or are they being ignored because they are trans? You can't have it both ways. It was by the way only your opinion that women were being eliminated I commented that if you believed transmen are women then you were effectively silencing one group of women (because they weren't the right sort of women) to suit another group.

I don't understand what you are finding so difficult.

Nobody is saying that transmen should not have maternity care. They are female, so there are no grounds on which they should be denied it.

A transman on a maternity ward is highly unlikely to pose a danger to the women on there, unlike a transwoman with a male body and male hormones.

A transman is likely to have a cervix, and a pregnant transman will, by definition, have a cervix. The majority of women no, and men do not.

Women are adult human females. This is a definition that is widely recognised by the vast majority of English speaking people, although some seem to struggle with the concept of what a woman is.

Women should not be reduced to being described in terms of their sexual or reproductive organs. Doing so is widely considered to be extremely offensive, and is usually confined to misogynists, pornographers and persons of limited vocabulary.

TRAs, however, would like women to be referred to as 'people with cervices' or 'vagina havers', as some transmen are uncomfortable with the fact that they are, in fact, female, and don't want to be referred to as women.

Many women of the adult human female variety object to this terminology, as as far as we are concerned, the word 'woman' has served us well for centuries, we have not been asked if we are comfortable with males using it, or about its use being changed when it refers to us. The idea that TWAW, but actual women are 'people with cervices' is anathema to us, and we have had enough of this utter nonsense.

None of the above means that we do not have every sympathy for transpeople who are deeply uncomfortable with the way in which TRAs have hijacked their agenda and simply want to live their best lives. We do.

In the spirit of true female socialisation and a non-threatening way I am willing to listen to any answer Rosie51 I do wonder why my posts have to be addressed to one person in particular isn't this an open forum?

To whom is your last post addressed trisher? It could be Doodledog or me and in true female socialisation I don't want to impose myself where I wasn't expected.

Seriously I don't get non binary. They don't want to conform to gender norms. .that's fine. I don't wear make up or jewellery, I never wear dresses..I have short hair. .am I non binary? why do they need an x on their passport?

I can see that when it suits you you will ignore anything any transperson requests on the grounds that it doesn't fit your agenda but then to state that they are not being mentioned or their needs met because they are female seems a bit contradictory to me. So which is it are they not being listened to because they are female or are they being ignored because they are trans? You can't have it both ways. It was by the way only your opinion that women were being eliminated I commented that if you believed transmen are women then you were effectively silencing one group of women (because they weren't the right sort of women) to suit another group.