Uncritical support for trans ideology is a bad idea - a calm explanation of why this is.

Thanks for the heads up, Chewbacca. I'll catch it on iPlayer if I'm not able to see it on Friday.

Friday night @ 21.00, BBC2 Kirsty Wark in a programme called Womanhood. It brings together six well known women to explore issues concerning women today in an honest discussion about trans women that creates the most confusion and anger". One of the panel is Nic Williams from Fair Play for Women so at least one natal woman's voice will be heard.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0011xgn

Trans people have rights. I cannot deny them that.

Natal women have rights too but trans activists are trampling all over them. Establishing the rights of one section of the community shouldn’t be at the expense of another.

I cannot blame trans people for the crimes of a man masquerading as a woman.

No one is blaming all trans people, but you can’t deny that the risk is there.

I cannot blame trans people for the mistakes made fighting for equality for all, including trans people.

What ‘mistakes’ ? You mean the complete disregard for the rights of others shown by trans activists ?

I remember the discussions when we realised how many LGB people actually exist in the UK and the fears about them sharing bathrooms, changing rooms, prisons etc.

Those fears passed. These will too.

No they won’t. Not while laws are being passed allowing violent criminals who claim to be trans to be locked in jail cells with vulnerable women. Not while laws are being passed sanctioning inmates of womens’ prisons for ‘misgendering offences’ by adding time to their sentences. And not while trans women who have male genitalia to share womens’ safe spaces.

Doodledog

Smileless2012

How can we put a stop to it Doodledog when there are women supporting it?

I suppose it's the women who support it whom I wish would wake up.

(this post was brought to you by the letter W)

Made me lol, a very unusual experience on any trans related thread ?

(this post was brought to you by the letter W) love it........ my kids learned so much from Sesame Street

Smileless2012

How can we put a stop to it Doodledog when there are women supporting it?

I suppose it's the women who support it whom I wish would wake up.

(this post was brought to you by the letter W)

Abolishing the GRA isn't going to happen any time soon when we have a loud, aggressive and influential organisation like Stonewall who have managed to convince high profile organisations hat are desperate to ve seen as "inclusive to all". The cause is further hampered by natal women who, for whatever misguided reason, cannot/will not see the irreparable damage this is causing. They will eventually, but it will be far too late for those women and girls who are being harmed.

It should not be correct to send a * male genitally intact* trans person into a place that should be womens only. It should only be possible to be recognised as Female after genital reassignment surgery. Ideally before that those people would attend a prison tailored to trans people, so their needs could be met and they would not be in a position where vulnerable women feel at threat.

**The Gender Recognition Act should be abolished, I meant.

The Gender Recognition Act requires 2 years of 'living as a woman' before applying for a Gender Recognition Certificate.
So it has normalised men claiming to be women, in their everyday lives, and everyone else being expected to go along with it.
In my view, it should be abolished, and so should the idea of being 'trans'.
Present however you want but don't claim to be the opposite sex - that should be the way forward.
(Not much chance of it happening, tho)

How can we put a stop to it Doodledog when there are women supporting it?

Easy isn't it. Just claim to be a woman and infiltrate places where women feel safe.
This is a real safety issue that is not being addressed for fear of being labelled transphobic.
It is also not helping genuine transwomen who have no intention of harming anyone and just want to live as women.

Iam64

That’s frightening Chewbacca. I’ll say again, the research is clear, predators find ways to get close to potential victims.

It is, indeed, terrifying. When are we going to wake up and put a stop to it, before it is too late to turn back?

That’s frightening Chewbacca. I’ll say again, the research is clear, predators find ways to get close to potential victims.

That is outrageous Chewbacca.

Excellent post Elegran. If there is a real desire to help people understand then communication is key and when communicating, language matters and that's what the vast majority of those contributing to these discussions say over and over again.

Expressing a point of view and then 'leaving' so you cannot be challenged IMO shows a distinct flaw in the argument being put forward. Indeed the failure of a few to answer questions asked is another example.

Stonewall could learn a lot from watching the video of Catherine Robillard; mature and well articulated.

From the Critic today:

More and more men with histories of boundary breaching are finding employment working in supposedly single-sex organisations and spaces now that they say they identify as women.

What makes this particularly shocking, especially given the grooming gang scandals of the last two decades, is that the females they’re choosing to work with are often the most vulnerable and voiceless in society, and the institutions that should be the most safeguarding aware are simply welcoming them.

Iam64 I do agree. I watched the video and was impressed with the quiet and lucid manner in which Catherine Robillard made her points.

Stonewall are fomenting confrontation and resentment with their aggressive stance and ^their refusal to even believe that those reservations are genuine ones.^

I agree completely with everything in your post Elegran, particularly your last sentence. And it's when women express those reservations that we're told that it's us that have cause the divisions because we're transphobic.
Good post as always Doodledog

Transpeople are not living in any rarified atmosphere on top of a distant mountain. They are living, working, playing, side by side with everyone else - most of whom accept them as they present themselves without any aggression or transphobia, but may have reservations about their own safety in certain situations, or about the language that describes them being distorted.

Stonewall are fomenting confrontation and resentment with their aggressive stance and their refusal to even believe that those reservations are genuine ones. They are not doing any favours to the individuals on whose behalf they claim to be working.

Doodledog Stonewall's motto is "No debate" It is not surprising that is taken by some to mean,, "Silence debate by any means, fair or foul."

Thanks for posting the video FarNorth

It's shocking how this has all progressed and I applaud this lady Catherine for having the courage to speak out.

I think that accusations like this are deliberately designed to stop the 'debate' on here, (not that we ever really get a debate, as the TRA participants refuse to engage, ignore questions, and generally stymie any attempt to discuss the issue).

We know that many people are reluctant to 'get involved' with threads that might get contentious, so seeing words like 'vitriol' bandied about is likely to put off anyone who feels like that, even if they have granddaughters or other young female relatives and are concerned about the way things are going for the female sex.

Lucca, I don't think I have ever seen a transphobic comment on GN. I have seen people say that sex is biology and therefore immutable. I have seen people argue against male sex offenders being housed in female jails. I have seen posts that express concern about the language being hijacked to remove reference to women, and people getting frustrated when those who disagree with these things can't or won't define what they think a woman is, even as they argue that a man can become one. None of that, IMO, is transphobic.

And pointing out that insisting on having a say and then hiding a thread is not in the spirit of debate is not vitriolic, either. It seems that appropriation of the English language doesn't stop at the erasure of women.

Yep Chewbacca is spot on. Dare to disagree with, or worse challenge, a point of view and you're not only transphobic you're oozing vitriol. Welcome to the debate

Apparently Lucca! Every time I've seen the phrase pile on and vitriol and I look back to check, I've only seen posts that just disagree with someone else's opinions. So I've come to the conclusion that pile on and vitriol = disagree for some people.