Men in women's changing rooms - not transwomen, ordinary men

Thanks Doodledog for your explanation. It is complex isn't it!

I think what partly puzzles people are all these acronyms which, though familiar to those in the LGBTQ community, for the rest of us need de-coding before we can even understand what they mean.

... which is all the more reason to talk about the subject.

Your post explains what the problem is and, if I understand it correctly, it boils down to patriarchy versus feminism, basically.

I have a TW friend - not an intimate friendship, but we share some interests and obsessions... baroque music (Handel in particular), ancient forests, and cooking. We barely discuss sex and gender matters - the thing that most bothers my friend is racism, as she's black and has suffered most from that phobia.

Chewbacca

^Chewbacca, I stand by saying 'homophobia':^

That's because you don't understand what homophobia is hetty and it really is about time that you learnt why describing your gay cross dressing friend a trans person is an insult to him. Seriously, you need to educate yourself on this subject before you cause offence to your friend.

There is clearly a misunderstanding in Hetty58's post about the difference between gender, sex and sexuality/sexual orientation.

These are lines that the likes of Stonewall would like to blur, and the blurring leads to accusations from transwomen (ie men who 'identify' as female in gender) that lesbians (ie people of the female sex whose sexual orientation is towards other women) are homophobic (ie fearful of or having antipathy towards gay people) if they don't want to have sex with them.

An alternative view of this complicated scenario is (bear with me, as this is no less complex) that there are a number of straight men (ie male people whose sexual orientation is towards women) who get pleasure from seeing themselves as female, and who get angry when they find that this fiction is not shared by others. They have been described as 'autogynaephiliac' or AGP. They target lesbians because lesbians' sexual orientation is towards other women and being found attractive by someone who is attracted to other women fits with the AGP fantasy about being seen as female. Also, as straight men, AGPs are sexually attracted to women, and lesbians, by definition, are female. Lesbians, of course, are not attracted to men, which, with the best will in the world, is what AGPs are, so this whole house of cards is doomed to failure.

When the AGPs are rejected as female partners, threats of rape and murder often ensue. Ironically, these are accompanied by accusations of transphobia on the grounds that lesbians (or some of them) enjoy sex with dildos, so in the minds of the AGPs they should also enjoy sex with their penises. Of course women who enjoy sex with penises do not traditionally identify as lesbians, but this, along with the feelings of the lesbians concerned is irrelevant, as they are women, and consequently should all shut up and accommodate the wishes of men.

Sorry - I know that was convoluted, so congratulations if you are still reading . It goes some way, however, to explaining why so many feminists see the whole 'trans situation' as patriarchal. This, along with the removal of the very concept of what it means to be female is deeply detrimental to women, as is the distortion of social issues which is created by men identifying as female in statistical research findings.

I’ve a gay uncle and his husband and I definitely wouldn’t strip down in front of them and I know they don’t like women. lol I’ve never took my boys into a changing room when 11/12 etc. and I certainly do not want a man dressed as a woman claiming to a woman standing next to me while stripping off. I stand with J.K Rowling on this

Excellent post, Dickens.

Chewbacca, I stand by saying 'homophobia':

That's because you don't understand what homophobia is hetty and it really is about time that you learnt why describing your gay cross dressing friend a trans person is an insult to him. Seriously, you need to educate yourself on this subject before you cause offence to your friend.

Any man can self-identify as a woman. And any woman can do the opposite. And anyone can be gender 'fluid' in their identity and be whatever they want, whenever they want.

But male and female are anatomical characteristics. Thus we have male and female facilities.

I've no idea of the statistics on how many TW use female changing rooms, and certainly no data on males who pretend to be TW for malign purposes - probably very few.

But that's not the point. The point is that an anatomical female has the right to a 'safe' space, as does an anatomical male. Your gender identity does not give you more rights than these two categories. Neither does it give you less.

It's a valid topic for discussion, and jumping in - as Hetty58 did with scornful derision, telling us that we are ridiculous for having a 'bee in our bonnets', and backing up her argument with personal anecdotes (which prove nothing) is what is wrong.

I don't know what the answer is - gender identity is a personal and cultural issue, and it needs to be talked about. And dismissing women as "homophobic" for daring to raise the topic is simply a way of trying to close down the discussion.

And Hetty58, if you're reading this thread... you sneered at those giving their own anecdotes and reasoning behind their opinions, and then promptly gave one of your own, along with your opinion. Your views, like ours, are subjective.

My gay friend's artist husband likes to dress as a woman sometimes. When he does, he uses the female loos and changing rooms, of course.

So this man - they must be a man because they’re a husband - doesn’t care about making women, who may be rape-survivors or have religious convictions, feel uncomfortable and embarrassed? That’s not exactly ‘womanly’ is it?

Why can’t they try on women’s clothes in the men’s dept?

Terribull, it is a dilemma I'm sure all parents with opposite gender children have had to deal with. I suspect this was the case with the grandmother in the situation I mentioned, though with family rooms, it shouldn't have been an issue. I didn't go back there for a while and, when I did return, the change areas had had a huge makeover so that this issue was no more.

When my sons had to go to the bathroom (at the age where they were too old for the women's but too young for me to feel comfortable with it) I followed the advice I had heard to stand outside as they go in and shout out that I was waiting for them outside, so whoever was in there knew that someone was on watch. If I felt it was taking a while, I would call in asking how it was going.

Yes you've made some good points CafeAuLait.

I do agree with your last paragraph. I also have sons and certainly wouldn't have done that at age 12.

A slight digression it is a problem for mothers when their boys aged 7 and over are expected to go into the men's changing rooms on their own at swimming pools. My older one was nearly 4 years older than his brother, so when that happened they went in together with the proviso they kept an eye on each other. Same for fathers who are out alone with their daughters, as you say, a need for family changing areas, although those weren't always available.

love0c

If you are a man and want to try on women's clothes then do, In the men's changing rooms and vice versa. Sorted!

Sensible solution! The men mentioned were obviously quite happy to demonstrate that they were trying on women’s apparel so why not go and be happy to do it in mens changing rooms?

love0c

If you are a man and want to try on women's clothes then do, In the men's changing rooms and vice versa. Sorted!

I have a transgender friend who has transitioned from female to male. If we went shopping they would go to the men's and I would go to the women's'. You'd all have this person go to the women's. Funny thing is, you can't tell and you'd think they were born male to look at them, so that would cause a stir if they went to the women's.

TerriBull, obviously not if stripped down to my bra in an open area (which is not a situation I would ever be in anyway). There should be a staff member in the area keeping an eye on things for safety.

Unisex spaces may be the answer but there needs to be the trade off of proper security and solid changing rooms, not flimsy curtains.

I understand the change room dilemma well, as a mother of sons. The solution was the introduction of family change rooms, which solved that.

I have been in a change room where a woman who must have been a grandmother brought two boys around the age of 12 in. Highly inappropriate and it did make me uncomfortable. There were family rooms available, so it was completely unnecessary. I thought of saying something but decided to just get on with it. I did complain to management.

If you are a man and want to try on women's clothes then do, In the men's changing rooms and vice versa. Sorted!

janeainsworth

Cafe it's possible these were men planning to transition who were on their first shopping trip to get women's clothing
Perhaps they could have ordered clothes online and tried them on in the privacy of their own homes, as many people do.

I find that difficult enough myself, since clothes are all different cuts and sizes aren't consistent. I have years of experience with women's clothes too. I can only imagine how hard it would be for people who have no experience with women's clothes.

There are some items I only buy if I can try them on. Trousers, for example. They are really hard to buy online because the cut and shape need to be right. Shoes are another.

"I'd be welcoming" Really! alone in a changing room, trying on a top, stripped down to bra, with two 6ftish men talking to each other over your head, personally I'd feel vulnerable. Although my thoughts are more with youngish girls, my granddaughter is 11, I think she's used changing rooms to try things on, possibly accompanied, but there will come a time when she does that alone, as no doubt many young girls already do. I think for them it would be even more disturbing than the journalist in question.

Ages ago I read about a spat famous cross dressing comedian had with a couple of teenage girls in a woman's loo, who probably had no idea who he was, not that should make any difference and it seemed from what I read there wasn't anyone else in there with them. When they challenged his right to be there, a shouting match ensued. I think the adult in this situation should have had enough nous to realise that these two girls found the presence of in their eyes " of a man" possibly disturbing and backed off by leaving.

Cafe it's possible these were men planning to transition who were on their first shopping trip to get women's clothing
Perhaps they could have ordered clothes online and tried them on in the privacy of their own homes, as many people do.

I have mixed feelings. I would accept a transwoman who presents as a woman using the women's changing area. People who clearly present as men should use the men's.

The dilemma I see is that it's possible these were men planning to transition who were on their first shopping trip to get women's clothing. The author did mention they were trying on women's clothes after all. I'd rather be welcoming, if that were true.

Maybe the solution for stores is to have unisex spaces that don't have a flimsy curtain and are much more private and solid than they are at present? Then it doesn't really matter who is next door to us.

Hetty58

Chewbacca, I stand by saying 'homophobia':

My gay friend's artist husband likes to dress as a woman sometimes. When he does, he uses the female loos and changing rooms, of course.

He's absolutely no threat to women, though. He doesn't fancy women at all - ever - unlike some women (who maybe we could be at risk of attack from - who knows? - not that it's ever worried me).

My brother is no threat to women. I still wouldn't want him in my bedroom when I'm getting changed.

Hetty58
I think this is just homophobia and transphobia, plain and simple - shameful!

Nowhere in the DM article, or on this thread, is it implied or stated that the men in the Zara women’s changing rooms were either gay or trans.

But just carry on taking offence and virtue/signalling about how ‘woke’ you are.

Its deeply deeply homophobic to suggest that a gay man is a woman because of the clothes he wears.

Daisy79 when you say unisex changing rooms, what do you mean?
Is it one big room for everyone?
Individual cubicles with doors? or with curtains?
Cubicles arranged around a communal area with mirrors, as described in the OP?
Or what?

My gay friend's artist husband likes to dress as a woman sometimes. When he does, he uses the female loos and changing rooms, of course.

Why of course? He isn't a woman.
Why doesn't he use the men's facilities and expect the men to "be kind"?
No-one knows if he's gay, or what his motives might be, so if someone objects it isn't any '-phobia' it's objection to a male person, just like the ones in my OP.

It never ceases to amaze me that those posters who want to deny female rights always have a gay friend (zilch to do with TW)
or a cross-dressing friend, (zilch to do with TW)
who would never harm anyone and
who always uses female facilities unnoticed and the posters aren’t worried about it so the rest of us don’t matter. Oh and women can be dangerous too, don’t you know, (zilch to do with the case),
so everyone else is phobic.
Actually, I begin to think we should be saying that the small number of problem causing TW and people who hold views like H58 are female rights phobic- afraid that women might be entitled to something that men want.
Read Doodledog’s last paragraph to save me having to repeat it.
(Can someone tell me if you can change your name on GN? I have a déjà vu feeling.)

Yes, there have been cases here too, and it is this, rather than ‘genuine’ transwomen that is the issue. This, and the fact that the language is being misappropriated to exclude women, and the shouting down of anyone who objects.

I got the impression that the OP was not about trans women in changing rooms but men posing as TW?

I don't know if this has happened in the UK, but there are cases in the US.

So I don't see what the problem is with discussing the issue.

Trying to stifle debate is censorious, and not really helpful to any gender - all have a right to an opinion.