How do you deal with persistent unwanted behaviours?

trisher Do you think I didn't do all these things? However for talk to be effective, the person you are talking to has to be listening. if they are, at the same time telling a story about the mythical people who live in the stream but come into the house and are jumping up and down on my head and shoulders and running up and down my arms, they are not listening.

And that still doesn't address the issue of her punishing her parents in non-dangerous ways.

You also have to be mindful that the other child or children involved can see that the first child's unwanted behaviour has been adequately dealt with. Otherwise why should any of them behave?
And other children are often less accommodating than an adult who can see the first child's bigger picture.

I think you have to stop looking at individual incidents and look at the child's life as a whole. For example a child who does dangerous and risky things, does her life have a place where she can do risky things safely with supervision or is she living in a protected environment and so just trying out her natural spirit of adventure whenever she can? Introducing something like climbing might help.
If a child is hitting and seems to enjoy hurting others, is that really the reason? If so where did he learn this was enjoyable? Inflicting pain on others (or oneself) is sometimes a way of coping with emotions we can't handle. Of course the child has to be stopped, but other measures need to go into place as well if there is a pattern. Praise and positive reinforcement of kind actions, discussion of how the child is feeling and a recognition that children do have dark moods which they need help to cope with all help.
M0nica I think sometimes you do need to explain to children that they are not adults and yes adults sometimes do things children don't like. If it's something that can be discussed because it is questionable (say something like smoking) then you will discuss it and try to change, but if it is a situation which involves safety or impacts on family life, then the adult takes precedence (point out she'll benefit from that when she is older). As for the dangerous, see suggestion above.

Is it possible that some approaches have more to do with preserving the adults ego and self image than with helping the child?

Yes.

You see violetsky there is no way I let a child lurch down the road to exclusion with repeated behaviours, when a firm (fierce?) “No” would stop that in its tracks. Which of the two would be the more damaging?

Is constant removal from contact with your peers any better? How does that teach them how to interact in an acceptable way?

Yes talk to them to begin with, remove from the situation if the child has lost control but when talking and removal don’t change the behaviour then what? Continue with what’s proved to be ineffective?

Is it possible that some approaches have more to do with preserving the adults ego and self image than with helping the child?

violetsky How would you deal with the situation I described where a child considers that if her parents can sanction her when she does things they do not like her doing, then she can sanction them when they do things that she doesn't like and sometimes she does things that are dangerous?

Tone of voice, set of face, use of language. I have a neutral voice that covers most interactions with children, a warm voice that I use when I’m pleased with them, and a cold voice when they are in trouble, with facial expressions and language to match. Using these consistently worked with my own kids and still seems to work with grandchildren and the many youngsters I work with. But you have to be 100% consistent, whatever strategy you use.

Where they can't enjoy play

It's not really me, it's training

I'm quite aware that some situations I wouldn't be able to manage and would need to pass on

Serious consequences would often be, be being removed from the situation. Sent inside where they can enjoy play or being removed from the classroom to work elsewhere.

Serious consequences can mean exclusion

At home I'd do much the same, remove from the situation or lose access to a thing they enjoy for a period of time

I'd seek professional help if needed. My daughter has autism and often struggles to manage her emotions so needs different techniques that are more sensory like slime calms her down. Not great for my carpets

So what consequences would you recommend?

He wasn’t angry. He was very clear that it was something he enjoyed.

Peasblossom

For some children talking through it doesn't work, they need short clear instructions in a calm voice, they need removing from the situation and they need consequences.

There is always a reason.

Do they have communication issues, are things OK at home, are they hungry, over stimulated, sleeping well. Do they think they are defending themselves or treated unfairly. Do they have SEN needs.

It's always about finding out why they are angry, why they are alleviating that anger physically and teaching them to use words.

Also at some phases of development this behaviour can be quite common.

I would also focus positive attention on the person they hurt while they are calming down.

Most children do respond to consequences and being removed from the situation.

When they are behaving appropriately they get lots of praise and attention.

Yes, my son was pretty unmanagable when he was young. I used to despair of people who said 'it's how you bring them up' and come up with what they thought of as helpful suggestions for managing their behaviour. I would have given up such a lot for them to have charge of my son for half a day and they try out their theories on him. Even playschool couldn't cope with him. Nothing worked. I remember being in a queue in a building society one day, and my son was making the usual nuisance of himself, swinging on the barrier rope etc. I was making my usual ineffective efforts to make him stop. Some old man in the queue said, "what he needs is a good smack". And, yes, I'd tried that, and, no, that didn't work either.

Despite all that he grew up into a wonderful man. Last year his mother-in-law remarked on how much she liked him and that I must feel very proud of bringing him up so well. I had to admit that I could take no credit for how he'd turned out because I refused to take responsibility for his dreadful behaviour when he was younger.

All I can say is that I have no helpful solutions to give but don't despair, try to ride the wave, it will be OK in the end.

To me violetsky your examples are not persistent and deliberate behaviours, just fairly normal occurrences that most people deal with as you have described.

You haven’t really said what you would do with the child who persistent hits others because he enjoys it and wants to keep on doing it.

It’s about the home environment really. The way adults relate to each other and the children. The scene is set, no one screams, shouts, hits, makes ridiculous threats that can never be kept. Of course no life ever runs smoothly all the time but set your boundaries consistently and with love and you’re half way there.
I’ve discovered an interesting thing. 3 year olds often get out of bed. At my house, or if I’m putting them to bed at home because mummy is working, I tell them it’s the rule at grannie’s that after their story, they snuggle down and don’t get out of bed. It’s remarkable -if only I’d learned this years ago ?

I'd love to lend my four-year-old grandson to some of you and see how you got on, because none of those measures would have the slightest effect on him (believe me, I've tried!).

Apologising is all right if they mean it, too often a quick ‘sorry’ means nothing, but that is then viewed as problem sorted.

I am with Peasblossom The child doesn't need to be doing anything that is harmful or violent, but just be doing something that they enjoy doing that is difficult.

How about. if the parent admonishes the child, reasons with them, makes them sit on a step or go their room when they do something they shouldn't, the child decides therefore that it is reasonable to punish the parent when they do something that the child disapproves of. These punishments range from the merely irritating to the downright dangerous.

No, those are real life examples

I know not all schools or areas are the same but when parents and school are working together it works very well indeed.

I like to think that I was positive in my approach when I was in the classroom.

However, I have to say that some of your examples sound more like a book than real life violetsky. Suppose you sent them off to say sorry and the first thing they did was go up to the same child and hit them again harder. What then? And again. And again. And again. And when you asked them why they said “Because I like it”.

This is a real scenario from my past.

M0nica there are a lot of reasons children have behaviour issues and sometimes they need further support but there is always a reason

In general positive reinforcement works very well

I like that idea GagaJo. There must also must be consistency between parents/ carers in dealing with poor behaviour. Children are quite clever at ‘playing off’ adults against each other.

Time out. We have a chair my GS is sent to. We set a timer for 2 minutes and when the timer goes off, he has a choice between apologising and having a cuddle or staying on the chair.

It does work. He's quite hard work but it stopped the hitting he was indulging himself in.

VioletSky If only it worked like that.

How about child likes whatever activity they are doing and whether told off, reasoned with or praised, keeps on doing it because they enjoy it and see no reason to stop?

It is nice to believe that a word of praise or compassion and encouragement to be kind immediately means child does that, when telling them off only engrains the behaviour, but my experience is that, while that will work for some children it doesn't work for many others.

Positive reinforcement.. From spending many hours on the playground

Child repeatedly kicks ball over fence.

One person might punish, ball taken away, or child told they could not play with ball for a period of time... Child resents what they enjoy being taken away, punishment finishes, playing football is not enjoyable now, hates football, kicks ball over fence again

Another person might call them over and say, "it's over the fence again? Oh dear, I've seen your amazing football skills, I think you can keep it this side if you try. Child runs off smiling and proud, ball doesn't go over fence again

Or child too rough with another child

One person might say, that's very naughty behaviour, you do not get a playtime now. Hitting is against the rules. Child internalises they are naughty and is rough again the next day because everyone thinks they are naughty anyway.

Another might say, OK, I think you should sit here quietly for a minute and then we will have a chat. Then when they are calm, ask why they were being rough, listen and understand their explanation, explain why they should be kind to their friends and to talk to you if they feel angry again. Ask them what the right thing to do is, send them off to say sorry, then make a point of passing them and giving them a friendly smile and a bit of encouragement so they know you are both on good terms.

Or child knocks another child over by accident and runs away.

One person might admonish them for being careless, point out the damage they had done or punish them for running off.

Another might say, oh dear, how did this happen? (after soothing hurt child) what's the right thing to do if we have an accident? We should make sure that the person we hurt knows we didn't mean to by saying sorry and then we should go get them some help from an adult. Why don't you look after your hurt friend till they feel a bit better..

Basically