I can feel the tears brewing in my eyes......

From Wiki I know, but states clearly, and from this Putin and his henchmen have committed war crimes.
A war crime is a violation of the laws of war that gives rise to individual criminal responsibility for actions by the combatants, such as intentionally killing civilians or intentionally killing prisoners of war, torture, taking hostages, unnecessarily destroying civilian property, deception by perfidy, wartime sexual violence, pillaging, the conscription of children in the military, committing genocide or ethnic cleansing, the granting of no quarter despite surrender, and flouting the legal distinctions of proportionality and military necessity.[1]

It was an honest post Granny23 and I don't understand why, or agree that you should apologise to your daughter for feeling as you do.

Like so many, we are finding it increasingly hard to watch the news, reduced to tears by the suffering we are seeing and the courage and determination of the Ukrainians determined to fight for their country and their right to be free.

Granny23

I was castigated by my DD for saying that I felt felt so much more emotionally involved with the situation in Ukraine than I had ever felt with regard to Palestine, Iran/Iraq or Vietnam, and this was because the people involved were 'just like us'. Apparently this is not a PC way of thinking but I can't help my feelings. This was especially true when a reporter interviewed an older Ukrainian Gentleman with a full white beard, who was the absolute double of and dressed the same as one of my lovely Scottish neighbours. It somehow made the situation personal and brought it so close to home.

I’ve just read through this thread and wanted to acknowledge this honest post. It isn’t about PC/woke thinking. I did feel hugely involved, protested against the war in Vietnam, took part in the ‘not in my name’ marches against the invasion if Iraq.
The invasion of Ukraine is another totally wrong, unjustifiable action. We should be able to discuss this without suggesting that Granny23 owes her daughter an apology. Here’s hoping she and her daughter can discuss this horrific situation openly, honestly and with listening ears switched on

this thread title needs changing so we know what it's about

Aviaparva. Exactly how do we arrest Putin? That is the question that matters. Do we invite him to come out of Russia and meet us at the Hague? De we send an Uber to pick him up at the front door of the Kremlin? Do you think he would oblige us by travelling, except under duress to the Hague? If he got into the Uber, do you think he would let it go anywhere where he might be arrested?

All the arrest warrants, all the evidence in the world are no use if we cannot physically arrest him and get him to court.

How do you suggest we do it? I am sure the court in the Hague would be very happy if you could show them a foolproof way of doing it.

AviaParva

M0nica

AviaParva Someone has to commit a crime before you arrest them. At the moment the court started investigating Putin within a week of the conflict starting, but they have got to have sufficient evidence that will stand up in court and that could take a long time to collect and there is still the question - how do you arrest someone who is somewhere your remit does not go, or where you do not know where they are. That is why countries have straight foreward criminal MOST WANTED lists. The police will either not know where they are or they will be in a country that will not let them be extradited.

As things are now I think NATO wuld be very happy to arrest Putin and turn him over the the court at The Hague, but how can they arrest him? They will not be able to get into Russia and the Kremlin to arrest him and he certainly will not come out of Russia to hand himself over, nor will Russia hand him over.

Wishful think is fine, but what do you suggest they do?

NATO’s General Secretary has already stated that Putin has committed a grave breach of international law by invading a sovereign state . To me a breach of law = a crime.
How much more evidence is needed to demonstrate that a crime/crimes are being committed? Invasion of a sovereign state, bombing of civilians, bombing of hospitals,:breach of cease fires, bombing of a nuclear installation …….
I genuinely do not understand who has the power to issue an arrest warrant and to arrest him and his commanders.
And if he has committed a breach of international law, then “international “ covers the “remit” doesn’t it?
This is not wishful thinking on my part. My suggestion was that international law should enable the arrest of someone who is committing a breach of international law …..and indeed the fundamental law of murder.
My puzzlement is that this cannot be done now, under international law, without waiting for yet further killing and destruction.

Putin will not be sitting in an office in the Kremlin. He is probably in a pretty impregnable bunker, ? in the Urals. Noone is going to go and arrest him under international law. It is not possible

I'm just hoping that the people we see down the end of the extremely long table (possibly there because it makes assassination more difficult) realise enough is enough and come up with something.

Redhead56:

'We have been through nearly two years of Covid the deaths the misery and mental instability it has caused'

- and so he picked this time, when we're all at a low ebb - thinking the Ukranians would be a pushover. He was wrong. All we can do is donate what we can, lobby our MPs and use our influence to express exactly how we feel about it.

M0nica

AviaParva Someone has to commit a crime before you arrest them. At the moment the court started investigating Putin within a week of the conflict starting, but they have got to have sufficient evidence that will stand up in court and that could take a long time to collect and there is still the question - how do you arrest someone who is somewhere your remit does not go, or where you do not know where they are. That is why countries have straight foreward criminal MOST WANTED lists. The police will either not know where they are or they will be in a country that will not let them be extradited.

As things are now I think NATO wuld be very happy to arrest Putin and turn him over the the court at The Hague, but how can they arrest him? They will not be able to get into Russia and the Kremlin to arrest him and he certainly will not come out of Russia to hand himself over, nor will Russia hand him over.

Wishful think is fine, but what do you suggest they do?

NATO’s General Secretary has already stated that Putin has committed a grave breach of international law by invading a sovereign state . To me a breach of law = a crime.
How much more evidence is needed to demonstrate that a crime/crimes are being committed? Invasion of a sovereign state, bombing of civilians, bombing of hospitals,:breach of cease fires, bombing of a nuclear installation …….
I genuinely do not understand who has the power to issue an arrest warrant and to arrest him and his commanders.
And if he has committed a breach of international law, then “international “ covers the “remit” doesn’t it?
This is not wishful thinking on my part. My suggestion was that international law should enable the arrest of someone who is committing a breach of international law …..and indeed the fundamental law of murder.
My puzzlement is that this cannot be done now, under international law, without waiting for yet further killing and destruction.

Holysox They are already there. People in Ukraine with families in Russia have reported ringing them with the sound of gunfire in the background and when they describe wha is happening their family in Russia absolutely refuse to believe them, saying it is all Ukrainian fake information and that Russian troops and planes are not attacking Ukraine.

HolySox

MOnica .. ah yes, Schindlers List. What I took from the film was how German society slid into 'acceptance' as the atrocities got worse ... and even felt that as a viewer. Let's pray the Russian people don't get taken along that road. On News bulletins of Putin he appears surrounded by people who look simply dumbfounded. Let's pray they start waking up and take action before it's too late.

Most have no clue about what is happening, Holysox.
The Russian news programme feeds false propaganda eg the Russian soldiers saved the nuclear power station from severe damage by Ukrainian rebels.

It really is wicked.

GrannyLaine

Have just seen a photo on my FB feed where Polish mothers have left pushchairs and prams at Railway Stations for Ukrainian mothers to use as they arrive with their children. The tears are just sliding down my cheeks......

I watch the news on the verge of tears but what started me sobbing was the rescue workers and firemen who found out it was a little Ukrainian refugee's 7th birthday, brought her a cake, presents and a hat and sang 'Happy Birthday' to her.

www.itv.com/news/2022-03-04/seven-year-old-ukrainian-girl-enjoys-makeshift-birthday-party-in-refugee-camp

AviaParva Someone has to commit a crime before you arrest them. At the moment the court started investigating Putin within a week of the conflict starting, but they have got to have sufficient evidence that will stand up in court and that could take a long time to collect and there is still the question - how do you arrest someone who is somewhere your remit does not go, or where you do not know where they are. That is why countries have straight foreward criminal MOST WANTED lists. The police will either not know where they are or they will be in a country that will not let them be extradited.

As things are now I think NATO wuld be very happy to arrest Putin and turn him over the the court at The Hague, but how can they arrest him? They will not be able to get into Russia and the Kremlin to arrest him and he certainly will not come out of Russia to hand himself over, nor will Russia hand him over.

Wishful think is fine, but what do you suggest they do?

Quite agree with you AviaParva it seems madness to me too.

Monica, I’m not thinking of assassination. I’m thinking there should be a NATO provision for arrest.

And Chewbacca, I understand what you say, but my point is that there seems to be NO provision for arresting him until AFTER he has completed his ongoing crimes! It is like saying “we have identified a murderer in our country, but he hasn’t finished all the murders he wants to do, so we’ll wait until he has and then……hope that someone, somewhere will arrest him…”

That is easily see. It is what of political leaders ahev thought just before the bullet struck or the knife plunged.

There were several attempts on Hitler's life and Stalin's, not successful, but there. Mrs Ghandi was killed by one of her bodyguard. The IRA had a darn good try to get Mrs Thatcher. Several other Soviet leaders were removed by those close to them.

Oddly I do not think he will be killed, I think he will be locked away and it will be said that he has had a breakdown, is seriously ill or whatever. it will be done without any seeming loss of face.

Monica, I know that’s not how things work under NATO. My puzzlement is WHY.
Why, after 2 world wars, and subsequent unjustified invasions of sovereign nations, is there not a “sanction” that stops the perpetrator?
As it is, the rules seem to say we wait until the perpetrator has done their worst, and only then try them for their crimes.

Putin is too well guarded and protected by his security forces; there's zero chance of him being arrested and brought to trial. And if by some miracle he was assassinated, there are many in Russia who would see him as a hero who was right about "the perils of Western influences" all along and would probably be even more vengeful and dangerous than him.

AviaParva we all wish the war would stop now. But that is not how things work. If a government of a dictatorial leader decides to invade another country, the country can capitulate or resist. Capitulation generally makes the situation worse, there will be atrocities by the usurper and insurgent and guerilla activity as well.

The alternative is to stand up and resist them, which is what the Ukranians are doing and what I would be doing if I were a Ukrainian.

Yes, there is a criminal court at the Hague that can try criminals once arrested and it does effectively have the powers to arrest people. But as we know in ordinary policing charging someone with a crime is one thing, arresting them and bringing them to court is another thing altogether and we have all seen photos of known British gangsters with counts of murder awaiting them in the UK, swanning it on various foreign beaches and cocking a snook at the police.

In present circumstances a warrant can be issued to arrest Putin and the whole Russian cabinet, but how do you effect the arrest? There is no that the Russia government can be forced to produce them for trial and imprisonment.

theweekjunior.co.uk/
sorry this is the UK version

It all seems to have happened so quickly. I know it has probably been planned in Putin's mind since 2014, when he annexed Crimea but our media haven't been aware since about 2 weeks ago.
I wish there was something we could do to prevent it getting even worse.
It was suggested at my church today that we can send money to the NGOs who are supplying aid, we can join in protests, we can support all who want peace (UN and most of the world) www.un.org/en/collection/29/7829
Link to United Nations Geneva but New York too.
and we can have conversations. Someone suggested how to talk to children about war and the magazine the Week, junior version has a good article about just that this month.
theweekjunior.com/

Travelsafar, your puzzlement that Putin is holding the whole world to ransome is shared by me.

I too am finding myself in tears quite often …. Tears of sadness for the people and leaders of Ukraine, and tears of frustration that nothing apparently can be done to stop this war or to militarily support Ukraine. (I hear and understand the fear of initiating WW3) But ….
I cannot understand why most countries’ domestic legislation requires that, if there is evidence that a crime is being committed, then the (alleged) perpetrator(s) can be arrested and stopped from further criminal activity, whilst a full investigation takes place with a view to legal judgement being reached in a court …..
Yet, in this case, whereas there is a court which can try such cases (The International Criminal Court that sits in The Hague) there doesn’t appear to be any official international body that can “make the arrest” (now!) to prevent the alleged crime continuing.
Am I making sense? Or bring too simplistic?
I found the NATO Rules of Engagement - but I’m not a lawyer …. Or a politician.
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/905877/20200728-doctrine_nato_allied_joint_doctrine_ajp_01.pdf
I wish that, in all the media covering of this war, that someone would explain this for me! Or maybe a Gransnetter can?
Most of all, I wish the war would stop , now.

Yes it should

I haven't claimed any kind of moral high ground, simply stated that I found a comment upsetting. I can understand why the daughter was upset by those comments. I hope that that can be made right between mother and daughter and a lesson can be learned from this.

I think younger people have grown up in a much more diverse Britain in a much more connected world where distance from atrocity is not a factor.

It's difficult, when you have connections to people involved or have tried to help in whatever way you can while under fire by people who turned their backs in the past on certain groups... to then see those groups specifically mentioned in such a way is painful.

If that cannot be understood then that is the way it is but I have tried to explain it.

I have sat here and read the responses to me and some of them were not kind either so wherever ever the moral high ground is, it's not here.

Anyway I will leave it there because this thread should have stayed about the plight of the Ukranian people from the start

ixion

^I saw a little Ukrainian girl (on the news) at the Polish border, and she was clutching a toy rabbit - exactly the same as the one my daughter toted everywhere with her at that age. I burst into tears. I think that's perfectly natural^

I saw that too, Doodledog.
That did it for me - collapsed in a heap and lost it completely.?

I keep thinking about her. Luckily she had made it to Poland, but remembering my daughter's rabbit (she still has it) really made me imagine how I would have felt as a young mother having to leave my husband to a very uncertain fate and take my little children to a strange place where I was reliant on the good will of others. How could it not?

I don't apologise for that - I think it would have been less than human not to feel it.