Vagina Museum

And yes, Lathyrus. Well said.

. . . we don't permit them to change any wording or anything that has the word woman in it, because they aren't the right sort of woman.
No, we object to people changing wording because doing so eradicates women. It doesn't matter who does it, and there is no 'right sort of woman' other than in your head, or on the script you keep repeating.

Non-binary people don't exist because some people think it's just to do with dressing a certain way and they must designate themselves one sex or another even though they think it is none of your business.
No, wrong again. Non-binary people definitely exist, and comprise the majority of the population - the ones who don't give a flying one about 'presenting as' one sex or the other, and change their clothing style according to their mood.

Tranwomen are mostly men impersonating women in order to access their personal spaces and/or insinuate themselves into achieving something they couldn't as men.
Yet again, this is wide of the mark. Transwomen are men who would like to be women. Some of them believe that they have been born in the wrong body, and just want to live as though they are members of the opposite sex, harming nobody.

Some of them are autogynephiles, who get sexual pleasure from being mistaken for a woman, but are actually heterosexual men who want to have sex with women, so define as lesbian, but then get annoyed when actual lesbians don't fancy them (because lesbians are attracted to women, not men).

Others, however, are sex offenders who enjoy the power of being able to insinuate themselves into female spaces with no sanctions. Here they can frighten, assault or rape women very easily, as well as touch them intimately and commit acts of voyeurism. It is because of the fact that some men (only some) pose a threat to women that safe spaces exist. The clue is in the word 'safe'.

Oh, and of course there are the ones who want to win medals at sport, particularly when the sport involves superior strength, and when a male physiology is an advantage, which is why there were women's categories in the first place.

Women are not being oppressed by rich powerful mainly white men but by all of the above.
Two wrongs don't make a right. The fact that rich powerful mainly white men can be oppressive (to both women and other men) does not make the fact that other groups can also oppress women less troubling.

Meaningless bollox about intersectional feminism v an invented and inaccurate definition of gender-critical feminism
Not worth the candle, really.

Transwomen arent mostly men, they are all men because you cant change sex.
You seem to have very strict views yourself on who can identify as non binary.
As I have said gender critical feminists have fought endlessly for better healthcare for transmen.

sigh Some people's reading and comprehension really does need some work.
Please quote the poster who said Women are not being oppressed by rich powerful mainly white men I won't hold my breath because as usual it's been made up.

Your intersectional feminist who is concerned about religious discrimination, how do they square the muslim and jewish women whose lives are even more curtailed because single sex spaces can no longer be guaranteed and it is against their faiths to be in mixed sex spaces? For example those once a week women only (which actually means female only) swimming sessions which a transwoman insists on joining when they could choose any number of other sessions.
What you're promoting is anything which places women back in their place, bottom of the pile, and with their hard won rights taken away bit by bit.

It’s a pity the trans communities don’t think as you do but are active in persecuting women, homosexuals and lesbians.

How contradictory that you ally yourself with them.

Rosie51

trisher

As has been said, many think that we are all non-binary,
You do realise don't you Rosie51 that non-binary people are actually people who refuse to be delineated by gender under any circumstances? That they use the pronoun "they" and have non-gender specific names? And they are currently not permitted to put non-binary on their passport.
It is a bit insulting to them to say you think we are all non-binary when plainly we are not.

Are you using gender to mean that inner identity some claim to know about themselves, or are you using it as an interchangeable word for sex? Faced with single sex spaces how do non-binary people decide which one to use, I assume they have to acknowledge their sex? I don't identify as woman gender, I am woman sex ie female. Every single one of us only knows how we feel, we cannot possibly know what it feels like to be anyone else of the same or the opposite sex, or no sex.
I wonder what criteria the non-binary Canadian footballer Quinn used to decide to play on the women's team, that binary.

Incidentally, isn't it a bit insulting to the rest of us for them to say they think we adhere to some mythical inner identity stereotype?

Golly now we don't permit anyone to identify as non-binary either?
So let me get this right
Transmen don't count because they are women who say they are men, but we don't permit them to change any wording or anything that has the word woman in it, because they aren't the right sort of woman.
Non-binary people don't exist because some people think it's just to do with dressing a certain way and they must designate themselves one sex or another even though they think it is none of your business.
Tranwomen are mostly men impersonating women in order to access their personal spaces and/or insinuate themselves into achieving something they couldn't as men.
Women are not being oppressed by rich powerful mainly white men but by all of the above.
If I believe all of these things I become a fully signed up gender critical feminist. This is a much better feminist than an intersectional feminist, who believes that all minorities, regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation race or religion suffer at the hands of the patriarchy, and beating the patriarchy means standing up for minority groups, who, like women, have been subjected to oppression and discrimination, that united we stand a chance of winning.
Well I know what I'm sticking with.

I fed up of all this. If a man wants to become a woman he needs to undergo surgery and hormone treatment. Even then his chromosomes and DNA will show that he is a man who has had treatment. No person with a penis and testicles should be in a space that is for women is ladies toilets, women’s prison etc. I’m sorry for being blunt but I’m fed up of all the hogwash about this.

trisher

^As has been said, many think that we are all non-binary,^
You do realise don't you Rosie51 that non-binary people are actually people who refuse to be delineated by gender under any circumstances? That they use the pronoun "they" and have non-gender specific names? And they are currently not permitted to put non-binary on their passport.
It is a bit insulting to them to say you think we are all non-binary when plainly we are not.

Are you using gender to mean that inner identity some claim to know about themselves, or are you using it as an interchangeable word for sex? Faced with single sex spaces how do non-binary people decide which one to use, I assume they have to acknowledge their sex? I don't identify as woman gender, I am woman sex ie female. Every single one of us only knows how we feel, we cannot possibly know what it feels like to be anyone else of the same or the opposite sex, or no sex.
I wonder what criteria the non-binary Canadian footballer Quinn used to decide to play on the women's team, that binary.

Incidentally, isn't it a bit insulting to the rest of us for them to say they think we adhere to some mythical inner identity stereotype?

trisher

FarNorth

From Maya Forstater's current tribunal.
OD is a female lawyer, Olivia Faith Dobbie. How can she believe what she said - or is it just that lawyers say whatever rubbish is necessary to try to win their case?

^Being pregnant^- well women who can't have children will love that
^vulnerable to rape^- does she not know men get raped?
Who is spouting "rubbish"?

Who rapes men, trisher? (Clue - it's not women)

Also, I think that the vast majority of women who can't have children will understand the context and realise that nobody is being offensive to them.

I have refused to be delienated by gender at all since I was young. Its oppressive and damaging to both men and women. It's why I always challenge the 1950 s nonsense of live like a woman dress like a woman.

Its fine peasblossom.
Actually those who dont want to be in womens spaces (and who therefore understand boundaries, consent etc) are probably the safest men to be in those spaces.
Although of course there is still the issue that to traumatised women in a refuge even lovely men may cause further trauma, its one of the many reasons we segregate by sex.

trisher
Who is spouting rubbish?
Well you for a start. You don’t accept facts, simply replacing them with words that support what you are saying, even when it’s not true or introducing a deviation because you can’t deny the truth.
You are such a patriarchal feminist that you willingly support males who want to override female rights and rather unkindly lump them together with the TW and men who have no such intentions.

As has been said, many think that we are all non-binary,
You do realise don't you Rosie51 that non-binary people are actually people who refuse to be delineated by gender under any circumstances? That they use the pronoun "they" and have non-gender specific names? And they are currently not permitted to put non-binary on their passport.
It is a bit insulting to them to say you think we are all non-binary when plainly we are not.

Oh right.

I think maybe I misunderstood your post.

I should add because my husband and sons are decent, caring men, none of them would dream of accessing female only spaces.

Exactly as Galaxy says. Why can't my decent, caring husband come into women only spaces just because he doesn't wear a dress and makeup? If you are going to let some men in, even if it is on the basis they identify as women, then it's discriminating against other men just because they don't. It's because we can't tell which are the bad few amongst the whole group that we keep the whole group out.

I think if you are opening spaces to men then there is absolutely no arguement to exclude all men from them. I feel no difference towards a man who dresses in traditionally female clothes to a man wearing a suit, why on earth would I.

Galaxy

No one group are a threat. Then all men should be allowed in any spaces. I dont ghink transwomen are anymore of a threat than men with black hair or short men or men who wear red.

Except that identifying as trans will get a male access to women’s spaces whereas being male with black hair or being short wont.

That argument doesn’t really hold up if you think about it.

And I would say that gender critical feminists spend an enormous amount of energy on the issues facing transmen, and detransitioners, the reviews that are going on at the moment (which will impact mainly on transmen because of the statistics) have been instigated because of pressure from on the whole those bigoted feminists.

As usual on these threads those who of course aren't anti-trans and only want to support women ignore anyone who doesn't fit in with their narrow perceptions. Like transmen, non-binary people and because of course they are evil personified transwomen.
Who are you talking about here? And who is being ignored? As has been said, many think that we are all non-binary, particularly if 'gender' is defined as a matter of 'presentation' or 'identification'. We have also said that transmen, far from being 'evil personified' ?, appear less on these threads simply because they are not a threat to women, and it is only threats to women with which we are concerned. You can pretend otherwise as much as you like, but I have very rarely seen anything remotely transphobic on these threads - just concern for the rights of women and girls.

I now fully expect them come back with "I've nothing against transwomen but....". Reminds me of all those people who used to say "I've nothing against black people but....".
The devil is in your elipses, isn't it? You can't make comparisons like that and have them make any sort of sense if you don't complete the sentences. I think your expectations may be confounded if you are waiting for someone to come out with anything racist or transphobic though.

As for the 'you hate anyone who is different' nonsense - you really are losing the plot if you think that. You appear to be losing your memory, too, as all of the above has been said on this very thread.

FarNorth

From Maya Forstater's current tribunal.
OD is a female lawyer, Olivia Faith Dobbie. How can she believe what she said - or is it just that lawyers say whatever rubbish is necessary to try to win their case?

Of course.

It’s all about winning.

No matter who loses in the process☹️

No comment about the ridiculous statement that there is no risk of rape our sexual harassment at work, then?

Obviously, Not All Women.

FarNorth

From Maya Forstater's current tribunal.
OD is a female lawyer, Olivia Faith Dobbie. How can she believe what she said - or is it just that lawyers say whatever rubbish is necessary to try to win their case?

^Being pregnant^- well women who can't have children will love that
^vulnerable to rape^- does she not know men get raped?
Who is spouting "rubbish"?

No one group are a threat. Then all men should be allowed in any spaces. I dont ghink transwomen are anymore of a threat than men with black hair or short men or men who wear red.

Men are a threat to women, statistically.
We have laws about that.
Men can easily claim to be women.
Spot the problem.