Vagina Museum

VioletSky

Lathyrus I prefer "ally"

I didn't know you had been appointed to speak for all gay men lol

Ally as in the Russian sense of “as long as you keep quiet and follow my line”

I’m nothing if not topical?

I don’t think I sad there was anything intrinsically good about being gay. Just that it’s not considered appropriate or desirable to conflate sexualities into one amorphous mass.

If a homosexual doesn’t believe his experiences are comparable to a trans experience then I think he’s probably right. Probably more right than someone who has never had his experiences anyway.

But Saviours always think only they have he truth. It’s part of the complex.

Iam64

So can trans people

of course!

So can trans people

Doodledog

What happened to gay people decades ago is not what happens to trans people now.

People are not asking for discrimination against trans people. We are asking for safe spaces so that women and girls are protected from predatory men. Non-predatory men are happy not to enter these spaces - it’s not as though there are many of them.

We are also asking for children to be allowed to reach adulthood before taking decisions that may adversely affect the rest of their lives- is it not the role of a parent to make decisions on behalf of their children until they reach majority? We don’t allow children to drink or smoke - this is a similar situation. In all cases they can do it when they are adults, just not until.

We might not allow it but teenagers drink, smoke and take illegal drugs. The alternative to getting a teenager help with their gender problem might well be them buying street drugs, which is even less safe. By all means restrict access to surgery but drugs which cease to have effects when stopped may be necessary for the child's safety.

Incidently there is nothing intrinsically good about being gay, nor does it mean a person is always unbiased and not judgemental. Gay people can be just as discriminatory as anyone else.

Lathyrus

Mmm. Ally means two sides together, mutual support.

So no, I think the word “Saviour” is more appropriate to your stance.

Like I keep saying trisha. Things have changed. Harking back to what they once were isnt really relevant in dealing with present issues.

George Santayana "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
The point is Lathyrus that not all gay people supported the trans community then, but some did. Just as now some will distance themselves and some will support trans people.
You cannot speak for everyone.

Lathyrus

Mmm. Ally means two sides together, mutual support.

So no, I think the word “Saviour” is more appropriate to your stance.

Like I keep saying trisha. Things have changed. Harking back to what they once were isnt really relevant in dealing with present issues.

Honestly, I've got nothing... This has become quite bizarre

What happened to gay people decades ago is not what happens to trans people now.

People are not asking for discrimination against trans people. We are asking for safe spaces so that women and girls are protected from predatory men. Non-predatory men are happy not to enter these spaces - it’s not as though there are many of them.

We are also asking for children to be allowed to reach adulthood before taking decisions that may adversely affect the rest of their lives- is it not the role of a parent to make decisions on behalf of their children until they reach majority? We don’t allow children to drink or smoke - this is a similar situation. In all cases they can do it when they are adults, just not until.

Galaxy

There was a lot of the saviour complex back in the nineties as well. I was probably guilty of it myself. I remember my friend being highly irritated if he thought he was being rescued. He was a force to be reckoned with.

Yup, not everybody appreciates being the prop for the Saviours ego?

Mmm. Ally means two sides together, mutual support.

So no, I think the word “Saviour” is more appropriate to your stance.

Like I keep saying trisha. Things have changed. Harking back to what they once were isnt really relevant in dealing with present issues.

There was a lot of the saviour complex back in the nineties as well. I was probably guilty of it myself. I remember my friend being highly irritated if he thought he was being rescued. He was a force to be reckoned with.

Lathyrus I prefer "ally"

I didn't know you had been appointed to speak for all gay men lol

Lathyrus there is nothing new in sections of the gay community refusing to recognise or mix with the trans community. It's one of the reasons black and Latino trans and gay people set up the ball culture in New York where they could be fully accepted and acknowledged. White gay bars at the time banned transwomen and particularly Latino transwomen.
I'm sure just as I don't speak for the entire heterosexual community you do not speak for the whole gay community.
Watch "Pose" or "Paris is Burning" if you want to know more.
The Stonewall riots were led by a bunch of cross dressing queens who used the pronoun "she"

Mollygo

VS, sooo sorry you’ve got Covid. Hope you soon recover with no long lasting after effects.
You said you were confused. I agreed it was OK for you to be so. I can’t do right evidently.

Listen and I will tell you honestly...

This subject has people passionate....

This subject has people angry.....

This subject has people worried....

Confused....

Fearful....

Emotional.....

I get that, I really really do!

But we are all being honest so we don't need to assign people views that aren't there because opinions aren't sort of one side or the other and don't always allign that way (if that makes sense)

Covid, after 3 jabs is a bit worse than I expected but I think it's on its way out and I do plan to achieve some stuff today lol

VioletSky

trisher I've actually heard that rhetoric quite recently about gay men being unsafe around boys and I didn't know whether to be livid or just burst into tears

They’d actually prefer you to do neither.

Gay men are perfectly capable of dealing with these issues.

They don’t need you to act as their saviour.

OMG VioletSky I do hope we aren't getting a backlash. I remember when teachers daren't admit they were gay and how great it was when they were able to come out. Mind Idon't see how it would work as a friend said to me, without the brotherhood education and the NHS would be sunk!

Mollygo

VS
We absolutely cannot discriminate against trans people in general due to the actions of a few. This has been repeated over and over in history and in other demographics as I have tried to highlight. This has happened primarily due to fear. Fear is understandable but often people suffer of it is misplaced.
This should be true, but unfortunately, as Shakespeare puts it
The evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interrèd with their bones.
So the ill-intentioned actions of the few TW and their vociferous supporters is what hits the headlines and reflects on others.
Those causing the fear by their actions are responsible as much as the press for spreading it.

Yes it should be true because it is true.

It's more than the press, its the people buying into those headlines, not actually reading the words inside, spreading fear like gossip and taking no responsibility when they are wrong

VS, sooo sorry you’ve got Covid. Hope you soon recover with no long lasting after effects.
You said you were confused. I agreed it was OK for you to be so. I can’t do right evidently.

trisher I've actually heard that rhetoric quite recently about gay men being unsafe around boys and I didn't know whether to be livid or just burst into tears

VS
We absolutely cannot discriminate against trans people in general due to the actions of a few. This has been repeated over and over in history and in other demographics as I have tried to highlight. This has happened primarily due to fear. Fear is understandable but often people suffer of it is misplaced.
This should be true, but unfortunately, as Shakespeare puts it
The evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interrèd with their bones.
So the ill-intentioned actions of the few TW and their vociferous supporters is what hits the headlines and reflects on others.
Those causing the fear by their actions are responsible as much as the press for spreading it.

Molygo even stuck in bed with covid I have enough wits about me to point out when someone assigns thinking to me that isn't mine and is therefor an untruth.

It ultimately weakens your points in discussion, thankfully not everyone does that

FarNorth

^I remember people being uncomfortable about gay people in toilets and changing rooms^
Really? I don't.

Surely gay people were already there, whether you knew they were gay or not?
Unlike this situation, where male people are intruding into female-only places.

Oh come on FarNorth it really is part of the history of the gay community. Men who weren't to be trusted, in toilets with boys, in the army, in education anywhere in fact because they were regarded as predatory. If you didn't know about the bias and discrimination then you damn well ought to.

VS I can understand you being confused, but it happens as you get older. Don’t worry. ?

Mollygo I was very confused reading your comment because, I don't say that and I actually agree with you on a lot of issues but then I got to the end where I was reminded about why we are arguing.

"reflects badly on all trans"

Here is where I disagree, not what you have unfairly assigned to me.

We absolutely cannot discriminate against trans people in general due to the actions of a few. This has been repeated over and over in history and in other demographics as I have tried to highlight. This has happened primarily due to fear. Fear is understandable but often people suffer of it is misplaced

BTW, I dont think what happened to Sarah Everard reflects badly on all police. I think it highlights that police should be subject to the same scrutiny as everyone else when it comes to the law and they should have thorough safeguarding checks and training. Always.

Doodledog
In any event, as everyone else keeps saying - we don’t care if that happens. We’ve gone over and over the things that cause us concern, as well as the fact that ‘ordinary’ transpeople are not the issue.

Exactly! And why would we know any differently since those who you claim have been doing it don’t make it obvious that they are trans anymore than most women go into a toilet blatantly demonstrating that they are female.
I’ve said most to pre-empt VS et al posting that they know women who prance round in public toilets showing off their female parts.

But VS and others appear to say in effect, that TW who do cause problems should be accepted as freely.
This doesn’t make sense either to us reasonable people or to ordinary non-confrontational trans, who aren’t any happier about the damage done to their lives by having a negative spotlight shone on them.
To give a simple (though horrifying) examples of the spotlight, for those who don’t get what I mean;
When Sarah Everard was murdered by a policeman, it reflected on all police.
The death of Star Hobson put an unwarranted spotlight on same sex parents.

The actions of a few ill- intentioned trans and their vociferous supporters, and their determination to override women’s (AHF) rights, as we have been saying, reflects badly on the all other trans.