Another baby killed

Nothing - just nothing justifies this:

Separate dog attacks in the West Midlands have left two children in a critical condition in hospital.

A two-year-old boy was seriously hurt at a property in Egdon, Worcestershire, on Monday.

It followed Saturday's attack on an eight-year-old boy in Cannock, Staffordshire.

The maulings come just weeks after separate and fatal attacks on two infant girls.

Earlier this month, Bella-Rae Birch died after being mauled by her family's pet dog in St Helens and Kyra Leanne King died after a dog attack at a Lincolnshire beauty spot.

Dogs simply exist and are a given too Luckygirl3. All around the World man has lived and worked alongside dogs since we were in caves.

When I was a child I was taught to approach a strange dog quietly (I always wanted to) and offer it the back of my hand to sniff, if the dog appeared pleased to see me, a wagging tail, then it was safe to pat, if the dog turned away or displayed displeasure, then leave it strictly alone. My children were taught the same and I still do it to this day. None of us have ever been bitten, although rejected from time to time. All animals will react badly if they're frightened and confused by over zealous shows of affection by strangers, woken up suddenly from a deep sleep, (let sleeping dogs lie) a crying baby, a boisterous child, and yes children and adults should behave with respect and calmness around any animal. You wouldn't allow a child to torment a baby, so why allow it to torment a dog or cat, rabbit or any animal come to that?

Ideally no child should do anything to a dog that might provoke it - but if it does the owner, and only the owner, is responsible for preventing injury to that child.

There is no question that the carers/parents should tell the child not to do it; but the ultimate responsibility for the dog's behaviour is the owner's and no-one else's.

Sensible parents will caution and supervise children around dogs as they do on a busy road or near a BBQ or river. Why wouldn't they? Why shouldn't they? .... busy roads and rivers are a given - they simply exist - dog ownership is a choice. And the owner has total responsibility.

Having dogs or having children is a matter of choice (mostly).

Being a part of society means taking responsibility for yourself, your dog and your child.

Most people do this easily and with diligence and it would be a shame if we couldn't all find a way to live happily and safely together.

The dog owners on here are all saying they want better legislation and licencing. I don't hear anyone being anything less than 100% responsible and stressing the importance of training a dog.

Sensible parents will caution and supervise children around dogs as they do on a busy road or near a BBQ or river. Why wouldn't they? Why shouldn't they?

I don't agree with the point Nothing anyone, young or old, might do to your dog justifies allowing it to do harm to a human being.

All creatures have a breaking point and I happily include myself and my dog in that. I once caught an acquaintance taking great delight in teasing my dog. My poor dog, taught through many years of regular training to be a good girl was trying to endure with good grace, but if she had snapped then it would have blooming well served him right. I snapped on her behalf!

Luckygirl3

I am happy for all those dog owners whose oxytocin is being raised and they are going to live longer - that's great.

But they still have an absolute responsibility to make sure that their dog does harm to no-one and that even a child behaving unpredictably is safe.

I do not want to deny anyone the chance to own a dog if that is what they want and it is right for them. No-one has said this.

But dog owners have total responsibility for what their dog does and there is 100% no wriggling out of that responsibility for any reason at all. None at all.

"It wasn't me, it was him" simply does not cut it in this situation. Nothing anyone, young or old, might do to your dog justifies allowing it to do harm to a human being.

I'm sorry, but that final paragraph absolutely beggars belief! So nothing anyone does to a dog justifies that animal reacting or trying to defend itself? That is 100% condoning cruelty to animals. If, for example, a child is allowed to pull a dog's tail or ears or poke the animal with a stick, how could you not expect the poor creature to react? What about children who torture animals for fun - and yes, that does happen (in fact, there is a proven link between children who do that and those who go on to become killers in later life). I cannot believe anyone could make such a statement.

Oh for heaven's sake - so people shouldn't be responsible for their children? If you're in a cafe with your child, as in your example, surely you need to be responsible for that child's actions? Teaching your child not to approach a strange dog is no different from teaching them not to run around wildly in a cafe in case they cause an accident - for example, bumping into a waiter/waitress carrying hot food or drinks.

But dog owners have total responsibility for what their dog does and there is 100% no wriggling out of that responsibility for any reason at all. None at all

But they do have to take responsibility. It's always been this way. If a dog bites it is usually euthanised and the owners are fined.

I've never heard anyone say, "It wasn't me, it was him!

And most dogs do not do harm to a human being. Plenty of ghastly human beings do harm to dogs though, but that's a different thread.

Look at the Ukranian refugees carrying their dogs as they flee to safety. They love their dogs. And cats. In fact there's a picture of a woman carrying 2 cats and walking a dog as she trudges to safety. Plenty of people are working to save dogs and other animals from Ukraine.

The lovely Doris Day ended her days surrounded by her beloved dogs, said this ...

"I have found that when you are deeply troubled, there are things you get from the silent devoted companionship of a dog that you can get from no other source."

And I totally agree with her.

I don't own a dog but I like dogs. I would always prioritise children's needs over a dog's but that would not mean letting a child tease, hurt or otherwise annoy one. Children need to know how to behave in a socially acceptable way. I.e be aware of other people/ dogs etc feelings!,

But they still have an absolute responsibility to make sure that their dog does harm to no-one and that even a child behaving unpredictably is safe.

So a dog which retaliated when a child was terrorising it was at fault?
One of our dogs once bit a visiting small child (quite gently) on the thumb because she had him cornered and was growling at him and 'playing witches' at him, trying to scare him.
I blame myself for assuming that a child knew how to behave with a dog, as mine all did.
He was a soppy thing but she terrified him.

I am happy for all those dog owners whose oxytocin is being raised and they are going to live longer - that's great.

But they still have an absolute responsibility to make sure that their dog does harm to no-one and that even a child behaving unpredictably is safe.

I do not want to deny anyone the chance to own a dog if that is what they want and it is right for them. No-one has said this.

But dog owners have total responsibility for what their dog does and there is 100% no wriggling out of that responsibility for any reason at all. None at all.

"It wasn't me, it was him" simply does not cut it in this situation. Nothing anyone, young or old, might do to your dog justifies allowing it to do harm to a human being.

Kate1949

Agreed. It's very odd.

It's not odd at all.

No sensible, caring parent will introduce a dog or dogs from a dubious background into a household with a small child.

It is the fault of the breeders, some of who have stolen dogs, the fault of the stupid parents and the fault of anyone who is that irresponsible to buy a dog without first checking its background and lineage.

People - not dogs.

We've owned about 30 dogs over the years. Pleased to say we've had no bites.

Children should be free to roam and enjoy themselves without having to undergo training to take account of the needs of people who make the choice to own dogs. There is no training involved. Just ensure that your children know not to go bouncing up to a strange dog who is enjoying a walk.

The benefits of children growing up with dogs are plenty. An autistic child neighbour of mine has come into his own now he has a dog.

Dogs do more good than harm.

They can be excellent friends to children, great fun and exercise giving for families, and marvellous friends for the elderly. How awful to think there are people who would like to deny this.

Happily it will never happen.

Study after study confirms that having a dog doesn't just keep you alive longer; it also improves your mental health, lowers your rate of heart disease, and increases your overall level of joy. This is, in part, because having a pet boosts your levels of oxytocin, the bonding hormone.

The only problem I have with dogs is the their lives are short.

Children should be free to roam and enjoy themselves without having to undergo training to take account of the needs of people who make the choice to own dogs. If you are sitting in a cafe with a dog (!?) it is your responsibility to be alert and make sure that your dog does no-one any harm.

I don't think children should be free to roam around in cafés and annoy other people, let alone dogs.
I've had nice coffee mornings in a local pub spoilt by out-of control children rushing up, getting in the way and generally being a nuisance. They should be controlled too.
However, I will say they didn't bite although they could have spilt scalding hot coffee.

Kate1949

Dog lovers and non dig lovers will never agree. I rarely join in anything contentious on here as that's now what I joined for. However, I have had bad experiences so I won't post again.
Also GSM you have been lovely and kind to me on other threads. We must agree to differ.

I know what you mean. I rarely join in contentious threads, but we are faced here with a litany of children killed and maimed and it is very hard to stay silent.

Part of the problem lies in the fact that dog lovers really do believe that others should fit around them. That is a false mindset. And it is not about hating dogs - it is about being aware what a danger they are. Minimizing that is why we finish up with these tragedies.

The job of a dog owner is to make absolutely sure that there is no possibility at all of anyone being harmed by their pet. It is absolutely THEIR responsibility and no-one else's. The training should take account of the fact that small humans are unpredictable.

Small children do off-the-wall things - they run up to people and grab them round the legs. Those people laugh and disentangle themselves because it is a child. The training of dogs to be safe around children must include an awareness that children are unpredictable. It is the responsibility of the dog owner to make sure that their dog does no harm to anyone at all.

Children should be free to roam and enjoy themselves without having to undergo training to take account of the needs of people who make the choice to own dogs. If you are sitting in a cafe with a dog (!?) it is your responsibility to be alert and make sure that your dog does no-one any harm.

It is no-one else's responsibility. No-one is required to fit round the choice of dog owners to own dogs.

Link to the very recent attacks. There seem to be so many recently, are these lockdown dogs I wonder?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-60907487

Dog lovers and non dig lovers will never agree. I rarely join in anything contentious on here as that's now what I joined for. However, I have had bad experiences so I won't post again.
Also GSM you have been lovely and kind to me on other threads. We must agree to differ.

Children should never lean down and pat a dog in the street, dog friendly cafe etc.
Well trained children keep a distance and ask. I say thank you for asking, yes you can stroke my spaniel. Thank you for asking, no don’t stroke the labrador, he may respond by jumping up, he isn’t allowed to do that, he’s so big he could accidentally knock you over. Thanks so much for helping me train him.

They lunge. Often with a toy.

Do children lunge at dogs or do they lean down to pat them?

So, Lucky, if your child suddenly lunges at my dog whilst I am sitting quietly with said dog, perhaps in a dog-friendly cafe,it’s my fault or the dog’s fault if it reacts to the assault? No onus on you to have taught the child how to behave around animals or to stop it assaulting my dog?

A few years ago, I was walking through a small market town in the south Lakes. I had a big 10 year old labradoodle and small 4 year old cockerpoo with me. From nowhere, a girl of about 3 ran up behind us, she grabbed my cockapoo round his middle, squeezing him. I stopped and prised her off my dog. Her parents and 2 older siblings ambled past. The mother laughing ‘ oh I keep telling her not to do that’. No apology, no remonstrating with the child. I called after her that it was lucky my dogs didn’t react but another dog startled like that could well bite.
The family was far from a low socio / educational group. Stupid though.

Now a 2 year old boy mauled by THREE dogs
Whoever owned the dogs is totally responsible.

Dogs are also pack animals, the family is their pack, and most dogs would defend the young and all their family.

This has to stop ….

Now a 2 year old boy mauled by THREE dogs in Worcestershire on the news tonight how do you educate a 17 month old, a 2 year old and we don’t even if these dogs were theirs or a strangers and he was just in the wrong place and the wrong time He is critically ill something has to be done
AND NO I m not saying ban family dogs but there has to be much stricter legislation
Perhaps all dogs should be muzzled when outside the home, but of course that wouldn’t help babies/children killed by family dogs in the home
There needs to be some strong work done on this problem and NO I m not a dog hater just perhaps more realistic than some dog (over)lovers