Another baby killed

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-60640561
I don’t remember reading about this three weeks ago but it appeared in the BBC newsfeed today and appears to be yet another baby killed it seems to be so regularly happening there’s just got to be something done

We had a visit from a Therapet dog at the special needs centre where I work today. It was heartwarming to see how the children responded to her visit - we're talking about under-fives, many of whom are on the autistic spectrum and find it hard to engage or interact with many people. One mum was in tears watching her boy with the dog. This is the flip side of the coin...

My friend's terrier is fine till it sees a squirrel for example then off it goes for the kill. And pretty bloody it is too
He must be fast!

Thank goodness a family dog killed a venomous snake before it got to a very young DGS.

GSM I remember when a very young DD got on the floor to play at a friend's house - we didn't realise their cat was under the table. DD got very badly scratched.
The same cat had earlier brought in two rats from the nearby farm and laid them neatly on the kitchen floor.
I was worried as cat scratches can cause infection which can lead to sepsis. DD was fine thank goodness.
Another cat belonging to family used to bite and scratch unexpectedly (it would lie in wait for unwary visitors).

They are not lovely, affectionate, loyal creatures as dogs can be.

Your last paragraph Lucky. How can you possibly know that. You jump to conclusions to suit your argument as I have said before. From what I have seen of uncontrolled small children around dogs, they don’t understand the difference between a pet and a toy and poke them around or even hit them with toys. Little surprise that the dog feels it has to defend itself.

Lucky, I assure you that responsible dog owners do not find jumping up, slobbering or unnecessary yapping ‘cute’.

Saying that is what they are programmed to do is just an excuse - dogs also are programmed to hunt and kill prey as they still do in the wild (dingoes, wolves) but when domesticated can be taught not to do that.

I do not think cats can be trained not to hunt, which is why many owners put a bell round their necks to warn prey.

Training dogs not to do that sounds OK up to a point, but the instinct is always there. My friend's terrier is fine till it sees a squirrel for example then off it goes for the kill. And pretty bloody it is too. And a lot of the instances where a dog attacks are because someone (often a small person who does not know that this pet harbours basic instincts that pose a danger) has done something that triggers the that primitive reaction.

Cats will kill for the sake of it, and torture their prey first. They seem to consider it a game. I’ve had many well-fed cats over the years and been sad to see them ‘doing what comes naturally’. Lovely animals but very cruel.

I have no problem with dogs that are under control and whose owners understand that they have a duty not to allow them to annoy others - and who understand that what they find cute, others do not - e.g. jumping up, slobbering, yapping at you etc. But there are such a large number of owners who do not fall into that category.

Sadly there are many many owners who leave them to roam about, or who watch them being a nuisance and do nothing, and who regard their dogs as a status symbol - a macho accessory. And, as we know, there are those who acquire particularly dangerous breeds and people (usually small ones) get hurt or killed.

I am not an animal lover, in the sense that I have no wish to have them in my house, but I am in the sense that I think we should be sure that what we do to make these animals into pets and companions is not at too high a price for their well-being. I have respect for the animal kingdom and feel no desire to make any animal be something that it is not for my own pleasure.

I am not vegan - but I do not eat red meat.

Luckygirl, are you vegan? Many vegans are opposed to pets, including dogs cats and horses. I’ve never understood where or how they expect these liberated creatures to livE

We train our children in various ways. My adorable six year old grandsons could go feral without the loving care, boundaries, expectations, stimulation, routines and do on their parents provide

I’m on an enclosed field so my bouncy young lab can sniff and wander before we practice some steadiness and retreives. I’m not bending him to my will or stopping him being the wild attacking Woolf that may exist in a tor nail. We are enjoying each other and strengthening the
bond. He won’t be running free at our parkland until he’s matured a bit and recall is 100 percent

I have no problem with cats - and they are out killing - my DD's cat leaves little offerings on the doorstep all the time as do most cats. That is fine - that is what they are. That is what they are programmed to do.

I find well-fed cats unnecessarily killing beautiful birds very distressing and cats in the UK kill around 50 million birds a year.

Saying that is what they are programmed to do is just an excuse - dogs also are programmed to hunt and kill prey as they still do in the wild (dingoes, wolves) but when domesticated can be taught not to do that. Perhaps cats should be kept indoors and just taken out on a collar and lead as is the law in parts of Australia.

It is irresponsible dog breeders, owners who are to blame and those who are daft enough to adopt street dogs from overseas as a friend did. She, despite being an experienced dog owner, is having problems with the dog she had brought over from Eastern Europe.

It sounds a bit like PETA indoctrination to be honest. People think that PETA’s aim is to protect animals rights but they actually believe (from what I can gather) that no one should have pets of any kind. Their long term plan, from what I can gather, is that animals probably won’t exist at all un less they’re in a totally wild form.

Oh dear, back to dogs again. I think Lucygirl, that you are just not an animal lover in any shape or form, which is ok, but for those of us who are, or at least understand why a lot of people are, your complete misunderstanding and negative attitude towards the animal kingdom, dogs in particular is just a little irritating.

I have no problem with cats - and they are out killing - my DD's cat leaves little offerings on the doorstep all the time as do most cats. That is fine - that is what they are. That is what they are programmed to do.

Your cat catches mice - do you have sympathy with the mice?

I am not saying you should have - just that I recognise the inconsistencies in our approach to animals. The choices we make about the good and the bad, the useful (to us) and the non-useful, those worth preserving and those that can die out as far as we care. It is all inconsistent and I find that fascinating.

We are only in this situation with dogs because of our attitude to them - that they are there for US, and for us to choose what they do and how they should behave. And when they don't ..... owners get rid of them, leave them around uncared-for because they have not lived up to their expectations. The choices made in relation to dogs impinge on us all - even those who do not have them. We all are stuck with having to learn to live with them whether we like it or not, because some people choose to have them. That does not mean that we all like it!

We only ever had one cat that was a voracious killer and she was a British Shorthair silver tabby, and I later read that silver tabbies were the worst when it came to killing birds and rodents. No idea why the colour should make a difference.

Oh FGS cats are not out killing all the time. I happen to be very fond of cats and had them all my life, although I totally understand that some people are not. They are totally different to dogs and yes they often have two homes in case one fails, how sensible is that!! We have a delightful little black puss who is extremely affectionate, loves a cuddle, and sleeps either indoors with our dog in her bed, or if she prefers, outside with our Exmoor Pony in his stable She does catch mice in our barn and generally has a pretty cushy life which she can leave whenever she chooses, no one makes her stay. I'd like to think that she only has one home but you can never be sure with a cat!

Our present cocker spaniel was like that JJ, we were also advised to let her have her first heat before spaying. Well the months went on, and on, and on!! In the end after consulting our vet, we had her done any way! She was fine and at last we could make some plans to have a life that didn't revolve round our home.

Cats are the wildest of "domesticated" animals. They are out and about killing all the time - as is only right - that is their nature. They come "home" because food and warmth are freely available. Nobody really owns a cat.

The idea of our human superiority and right to train animals to do what we want is so ingrained that any discussion on the principles seems to be impossible.

As humans we have a really strange relationship with animals. Rodents are either pests to be exterminated as quickly as possible and as cruelly as is needed; or they are pampered pets. Lambs are cute little things bouncing around the fields or they are dinner. Protected species are protected at the expense of those to whom they are predators - why do we have the right to decide which species lives and which dies?

By the way - I do live in the middle of nowhere Jody1234!

we had to spay our own rescue dogs, they ask now to let the female have her first season but our current dog was @ 19 months and still hadn't had a season so the vet decided to just do it

Not all rescue dogs are spayed or castrated, perhaps because the charities can’t afford it. Spaying is costly. I have only had one entire male rescue dog, who was later castrated for health reasons. All the females had already been spayed before going to the rescue kennels.
I agree that castration shouldn’t be carried out too early and unfortunately many dogs aren’t given boosters. You can however easily see if most male dogs are entire or not. Stop and search perhaps!

But castration too early can result in behavioural problems and also interfere with bone growth etc. And many people no longer give their dogs booster vaccinations. I think all dogs in rescues are spayed or castrated but I could be wrong.

I imagine that castration could be carried out at the same time as vaccination. You’d never achieve 100% compliance of course but at least if a male dog was found not to be castrated (and unless they have long fur you can see at a glance) then an offence would be committed. I wouldn’t advocate extending it to spaying as that’s a much bigger operation. I thought that puppy farms had been outlawed but sadly they still exist. I completely agree with what you say about training dogs. My last vet trained sheep dogs and he certainly wouldn’t have been involved in cruel practices. It’s a joy to watch a working dog whether a sheepdog, police dog or guide dog.

I agree with you Gsm. I couldn't quite believe the post from Lucky @ 21.25. I was tempted to reply but I thought it better to leave it 'til today when others will have done so in a better way that I could.
I was tempted to ask if it was a "wind up". The various comments regarding wild animals/dogs, are quite ridiculous.
What do you think about cats, Lucky, they roam in and out of gardens sit on fences etc; or even children who play games outside, ride their bicycles outside, make lots of noise when the are playing etc.
I would honestly have thought if you are so concerned about dogs where you live, that a house in the wilds away from civilisation would be a better choice for you.
Each and every one of us has said there should be more legislation regarding dog owners and dog breeders.

The trouble is, how would you police mandatory castration (and perhaps spaying too) and backstreet breeding? I thought puppy farms were illegal these days? Certainly buying and selling of any animal should be illegal through social media, and I think you could possibly enforce that, which would be a good step forward. As for the domestication of dogs, the facts are well known as described by posters on here, and to suggest that somehow it is cruel to train and socialise a puppy is just ridiculous and tbh I can't be bothered to discuss it. untrained children can be pretty wild too!! Nobody could ever watch a sheepdog in action without realising that these dogs are doing exactly what they instictively enjoy as do many other breeds. No one is cruel to them, no one is making them behave in an unnatural way. To suggest otherwise just displays a complete ignorance of the canine world.

I have already said that I agree with regulating breeding, though I doubt that would ever be completely achieved whilst you have people buying a dog from God knows where to make a quick buck from some unlicensed back street breeding out of sight.
Quite how you could regulate ownership I don’t know. Simply bringing back the old licensing system wouldn’t solve the problem of irresponsible ownership. There are enough drivers without licences on the roads to knock that one on the head.
A combination of mandatory castration of male dogs not owned by licensed breeders and a ban on the sale of dogs (and preferably all animals) on social media and through classified ads would go some way to reducing numbers of poorly controlled dogs.