Another baby killed

Luckygirl3

I can only speak on the basis of my experience. Sadly it has all been bad.

I do think there is a problem with the proliferation of dogs in the UK, and the level of nuisance that they cause. As you say your dog's instinct is to protect you all - what happens to those who are not part of your family. The dog sees them as a threat of course. And what does a dog do when his own are threatened?

I am also very interested in the topic of humankind's relationship with the natural world, and animals in particular.

Totally agree with your last paragraph in that the current viruses that we have in various parts of the world are a result of our relationship with animals and the way we abuse them. And we’re the only animal on the planet threatening the very existence of every other living creature (and I don’t just mean by nuclear war). If we don’t sort out that relationship we’ll go down with them. Look how, during the first long lockdown, Mother Nature began to heal herself.

I am glad that your dog has never attacked anyone. Would that this were so for all dogs; and especially the alsatian that went for me as a child.

There is no way of completely ensuring that dogs do not follow their defence/attack instincts. At least some attempt should be made to control the number of dogs, to regulate their ownership and breeding - we more or less have a free-for-all at the moment.

My dog has never, ever attacked anyone Lucky, but I have no doubt that if someone attacked us she would respond. As would any of us if they saw a family member being attacked. We wouldn’t idly stand by and watch would we? She would not, however, instigate an attack where no threat is present. I’m sorry you have had bad experiences with dogs but you cannot ignore the knowledge of experienced dog owners who know their animals very well. I’m a very experienced German shepherd owner and know the breed well enough to assure you that their natural instinct is to protect their family, not to attack indiscriminately.

One point on which we can agree is that because of indiscriminate breeding and thoughtless lockdown cravings for puppies there are too many dogs around, and too many in the wrong hands.

I appreciate that the idea that dog owners suppress their pets natural instincts might not feel comfortable to you, but I do not think it is arguable. Without the training of their owners, their behaviour would be very different, and would be dictated by their wild side.

Now, you can argue that it is fine to train these traits out of them - that is one way of looking at it - but only one.

I can only speak on the basis of my experience. Sadly it has all been bad.

I do think there is a problem with the proliferation of dogs in the UK, and the level of nuisance that they cause. As you say your dog's instinct is to protect you all - what happens to those who are not part of your family. The dog sees them as a threat of course. And what does a dog do when his own are threatened?

I am also very interested in the topic of humankind's relationship with the natural world, and animals in particular.

Frankly Lucky I don’t think you really know much about dogs. You make up a narrative to support your intense dislike of them despite hearing from posters on here who have owned various breeds of dog for many years and have considerable knowledge of them. My German shepherd’s instinct is to protect her family and her home. Evidence of generations of domestication, her ancestors many years ago having been wolves who attached themselves to man in order to enjoy the fringe benefits of food and shelter. She pays no attention to the wildlife coming into the garden nor to the horses grazing in full sight in the field behind us, coming right up to the chain link fence. She hasn’t been taught to ignore them. She understands that they pose no threat. If she had these basic wild instincts you talk of she would want to savage them and have to be restrained. It’s ridiculous to suggest that responsible dog owners are cruelly suppressing their dogs’ natural instincts.

All dogs, domesticated or not, have the basic instincts of wild animals. This is what causes the problems. What else causes them? Bad owners get blamed - but all these bad owners are doing is failing to curb the dog's basic instincts.

Thanks MawBee70, for posting the truth. The wolves hung around, decided living with humans was a Good Thing that may lead eventually to sharing the sofa and watching tv with their chosen being.
Most dogs in this country now come from hundreds of years of domesticated life. They have breed specific characteristics, terriers kill rats given the chance. My two retrieve given any opportunity, retrieving from water is their favourite thing though the spaniel is also instinctively ace at flushing birds.

Assistance dogs work hard, especially guide dogs. Labradors and retrievers are most likely to be selected by guide dogs, hundreds of years of working alongside people, generally good temperament, clever and keen to work and please make them a good choice.
Police dogs love their work. They live with their handler and usually stay with them on retirement. My pet dogs were of great assistance during therapeutic work with children.

Yes, we need regulation of breeding, the importing of street dogs. Yes people should educate thenselves, all this is obvious and acknowledged. We live in a free society thank heavens. Dogs bring so much happiness to so many people. There’s research confirming this, people who have dogs tend to be healthier and have better mental health

But they’re wild animals that chose to live with us because they realised by doing so they were on to a good thing. Unlike most animals we didn’t domesticate them; they domesticated themselves. Humans didn’t go out trapping wolves to make pets of them The wolves hung round the campsites and started to make themselves useful. Cats did the same but tended to do it more on their own terms. Dogs, being pack animals were able to key into man’s emotions, too. If you asked Winnie if she’d rather be out hunting rabbits and sleeping in a cave or sitting on the sofa with me sharing a banana (her favourite) I know what her answer would be….

Assistance dogs - there is no difference with these than with any others. They too are wild animals who are being trained to do our bidding. Under the right circumstances, they too are equally unpredictable. Of course I understand that they are doing good (from a human perspective) in the role that we have chosen for them.

I am not comforted by the suggestion that a dog growling and barking alongside a fence will be just fine if it has been properly trained and has responsible owners (and if the fence holds).... the problem lies in the "if" and this thread has made it very clear that responsible owners are far from being a given.

Dog ownership is too lightly regulated and the numbers are out of hand now. All too often they are blessed nuisance to people, and I do not believe that is acceptable. Under no other circumstances would this be tolerated.

I am not unaware of the suffering of dogs as they submit themselves to our will: e.g. choking on a collar when out for a walk on a lead and being prevented from what is natural to them; and this weekend I was on a (very packed) train and a poor little dog was squashed in along with the rest of us, and people were passing food around over its head - all it could do was follow it plaintively with its eyes - not allowed to be a dog and gobble it up, but being required to be a mini-human and show restraint.

Being a pet must be very tough when you are in fact a wild animal at heart.

Is it right that we do this to them? Most people seem to think it is and never question it. But I do question it. All the problems that arise with dogs are because we are forcing them to go against their natures.

Man's relationship with the animal kingdom veers between the sentimental and the downright cruel.

I was chatting with a vet on the beach a few years ago who told me that Labs were responsible for more attacks than any other breed. Can’t remember if she meant attacks on other dogs or on people. Or both.

Labs are hugely popular, so I’m not surprised they are represented as having bitten. I can’t find any detail, other than that post delivery people have been bitten by labs, no info as to whether these are loose working labs in rural areas. Hasten to add , I’m not excusing any attacks, especially on posties or any delivery people

Labs are the most commonly owned breed in this country, so it stands to reason that they're going to appear more in the statistics. ANY dog can bite - the trouble with statistics is that you don't know what went on beforehand. Chances are a good number of those dogs were provoked in some way.

I wasn't going to post on this thread again but just to say Jax, as I posted above, it was a Labrador that attacked my friend's child.

Forgot to add labradors are not that benign.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/dog-breed-most-likely-to-attack-bite-you-revealed-a7166296.html

We know four couples who’ve bought dogs in the last year, only one dog has been appropriately trained and is a pleasure to be around. Two are treated, as observed, like replacement children, including the owners referring to themselves as ‘Mummy and Daddy’, one is too big and strong for the owners, goodness knows how that will end up.
I think it’s a real shame, we’ve never had dogs as adults, our lifestyle, working full time, holidays, doesn’t work, but I think, as noted, it’s too easy to buy, what for some, is a ‘cuddly toy’.

BlueBelle I think you'll find that we have actually pretty much all backed calls for such measures. Any responsible dog owner would. It's hardly surprising that some of us get a bit defensive though when faced with some posters who are very anti-dog (not just on this thread, but previous ones too - they know who they are) and who seem to tar all dog owners with the same brush.

BlueBelle, I expect I’m in your dog lover group. I think you’ll find I’ve posted in a critical way about puppy farms, untrained dogs, irresponsible owners etc. I raised ear cropping, bully breeders churning out pups, exploiting breeding bitches and studs, illegally cropping ears etc. I was highly critical of unregulated breeding. Responsible breeders do health checks, only breed from dogs with established excellent health and temperament.
I supported Uk dog shelters who won’t place where there are young children or the fences aren’t high and secure, where people work full time. I’ve asked for greater regulation of breeders.
All owners should commit to at least a year in a good training group. I’m in year 2 with my young dog. My lovely labradoodle died aged 12, 18 months ago. Up to lockdown we were still enjoying a weekly advanced class together
Get frustrated and cross by all means but the ‘dog lovers’ contributing here seem to be in the same group as me -the responsible dog group

Dog lovers in your quest to prove dogs are brilliant. all good and all loving you are missing the point in your enthusiasm to protect your dogs’ image

This isn’t about responsible owners, or service dogs or sweet companions I think we all know there are lots and lots of these but this thread is about Irresponsible owners, rogue dogs and situations that not only put people, particularly young children and babies in danger, but can cause fear, dirtiness (when they cock their leg in inappropriate places, where the owners don’t pick up poo or pick it up and leave it in the trees)
where they can be allowed to jump up or kept off a lead the puppy farms, the poor breeders, the ear and tail croppers, the massive amount of money passing hands, the dressing up of dogs, the owners that leave them barking all day or night

Dog lovers instead of being so defensive you should be joining us to get rid of all these awful practices that are bad for dogs, bad for responsible owners and bad for the general public

Totally agree with GSM and Iam64. And dogs also save lives - every single day of the week. Let's not forget that.

I can honestly say I’ve never lived with a dog who snapped at a person or a child. I’m 73 and only for 5 years aged 18-23 didn’t live with dogs, though I often stayed with my parents who did have a dog.
Staffies aren’t my kind of dog but my childminder had 3 and many of the foster families I visited had staffies, or other dog breeds. Staffies were known as the nanny dog because of their suitability to living with children. Sadly, many are now overbred and crossed with pit or other bull breeds so their reliable temperament can’t be relied on.

For which I blame the parents and the owners of the dogs, if not the parents, MOnica. Not the dogs. That doesn't mean that I lack empathy. Dogs have to be carefully chosen and properly trained and controlled, and children have to be supervised and taught how to behave around them. I was brought up with dogs. I have never suffered any harm. Possibly because the dogs were carefully chosen and my grandparents and parents were intelligent people. I believe it was said upthread that there is a proven connection between lower intelligence/socio economic group and ownership of macho status-type dogs, though they're certainly not the only canine culprits.

argymargy Fatalities may be few but attacks and injurys run far far higher and too many of those injured are children.

Even the placid Labrador has been known to snap, Poodles can be highly strung and certainly when pushed will snap. Any dog will, under duress, snap, but certainly some types of terrier and these macho dogs are more inclined than others to cause real damage. Yes Badger baiting is a huge problem as is Hare coursing, Lurchers are used for speed, usually abandoned when their speedy days are over, people who do this are in a different league and brutally wicked.

PamelaJ1

Good article in the Times today from Rod Liddell. Sorry can’t do links.
When we had a dog, we gave a lot of thought before hand about it. How much exercise it would need etc. temperament came high on the list.
According to Rod, this century so far 43 people , many of them children, have been killed in the UK. 31 of those involved were pit bulls, staffies or similar breeds. You know, the sort of dog that was bred for attacking .
Why do people still think it’s a good idea to have one as a family pet?
Tragedies will always happen, Bluebelle has just given us an instance. Those children are still alive though. Perhaps their parents rescued them. A terriers jaw isn’t as strong as a pit bulls.

I also read the Rod Liddle article in the ST. I know from what he's previously written he is a dog lover. He made the point that whenever these poor children are mauled to death by a dog, it is so often the case by a very aggressive non legal breed, I think he stated something along the lines these incidents don't happen with say a Labrador, King Charles or Poodle. What kind of people want to own a breed that is bred specifically for fighting and would be a danger not only to their family but the general public I think this couple albeit very young were staggering in their ignorance and negligence.

Slightly aside from that article, I often wonder about sadists who use such banned breeds for badger baiting and the like, clearly warped individuals to want to instigate such wanton cruelty against these lovely, rarely seen creatures, utterly, utterly repugnant imo.