Another baby killed

Totally agree with you jacksmum. Dogs are not humans, do not think like humans, cannot reason like humans, but people will treat them as if they are. They cannot help the fact that a child will often be encouraged to treat a dog/puppy like a new toy, to be played with, sometimes quite roughly, dressed up, paraded around in a shopping basket or whatever, Always blaming the dog when perhaps it has just had enough or is frightened by being shouted at, dogs cannot understand what you say to them, what they understand is your tone of voice, that's why you have to be consistent with training. Crying babies can often confuse a dog causing it to snap or even attack . Why oh why can't people understand that a dog is an animal not a human and teach children and perhaps themselves how to treat and respect their new puppy, not torment the poor thing by 'playing'. It's almost always bad,stupid owners, not bad stupid vicious dogs.

Child fatalities caused by dogs are rare in the UK en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom (yes it's Wikipaedia but the stats are from ONS). However we could perhaps expect an increase following the Covid surge of dog ownership in the last couple of years. Dog bites/attacks/hospitalisations however are common... www.rcseng.ac.uk/news-and-events/media-centre/press-releases/be-dog-safe/

I agree. I have sighthounds and they sleep 99% of the time. But they can react badly if woken up whilst in a deep sleep as it’s a defence mechanism. But I’ve accidentally cut into my dogs quick whilst trimming her nails and she didn’t bite me even though she would have been entitled to do so. To get a puppy from her breeder is like the Spanish Inquisition and you have to sign all sorts of things to say she will not be bred from, not sold on without her being notified. I was house checked. If I have the slightest problem, no matter how trivial she replies to me almost instantly. She asks for notification of any health concerns so that she can look into any genetic problems even though she has every puppy heart eye etc checked before rehoming. She did advise us (being elderly) to have one of the more docile puppies from the litter and tries to establish which puppy would be better suited to different people. But the puppy classes we took her to turned her into the most amazing dog. If only all dog breeders were like her there wouldn’t be a problem. Alas, this isn’t the case.

I think alot of posts on here are blaming the dog , do any of you know this dogs history? these people had only recently got this dog , do any of you know what had happened to it in the past,? do any of you know what if anything these people or the child who so sadly died had done to it, It really is not all explained in press reports and probably never will be, children are fine to have with dogs ,but both need watching 100 per cent of the time, especially young children, its so easy for them to fall onto a dog that may be scared/sleeping , and in this case was the dog scared of children /adult's? Please dont always blame the dogs , the human race has alot to answer for ,in the way some dogs are treated/react. and the dog can never say what has happened!!

Good article in the Times today from Rod Liddell. Sorry can’t do links.
When we had a dog, we gave a lot of thought before hand about it. How much exercise it would need etc. temperament came high on the list.
According to Rod, this century so far 43 people , many of them children, have been killed in the UK. 31 of those involved were pit bulls, staffies or similar breeds. You know, the sort of dog that was bred for attacking .
Why do people still think it’s a good idea to have one as a family pet?
Tragedies will always happen, Bluebelle has just given us an instance. Those children are still alive though. Perhaps their parents rescued them. A terriers jaw isn’t as strong as a pit bulls.

Out last night with friends who had been visiting their daughter and GD. They thought it was sweet and lovely that their 14 month old GD holds the dog’s head between her hands and kisses it. I was appalled. These are generally quite sensible people, if it was my GD I would be having a go at my daughter and certainly would not be telling people how irresponsible she and we are.

So todays news brings us two more children injured by a dog in Staffordshire the boy has sustained severe facial injuries
It’s a family pet believed to be a terrier

I think a few prosecutions would make those who are irresponsible in their attitude to dogs think again, but considerations like that have never stopped the authorities form prosecuting murderers, thieves or tax-dodgers.

Jaberwok

I worked in Social Services for many years and of course met many people, a lot of whom owned dogs. Only one dog in all those years managed, after several attempts, to nip my ankle as I was leaving, a Jack Russell terrier who was extremely protective of his elderly owners. They were mortified , but we resolved the issue by them promising to shut 'Fred' in the kitchen on any further visits. I wouldn't have dreamt of making a fuss and risk their much loved dog being removed or worse.

The only dogs who have nipped either DH or me have been a Yorkshire terrier who nipped my ankle (I wasn't sure what had happened) and a Jack Russell who leapt out and nipped DH. The JR found himself airborne (very gently). He's still ok.
So is DH.

It’s unfair and untrue to suggest the dog owners on this thread don’t care about out of control dogs or that we claim all is well, there are many posts from dog owners acknowledging the problems caused by the huge increase in dog ownership, particularly with untrained out of control dogs
Jaberwok I understand the desire some have for the parents in this latest case to be prosecuted. I feel they’ll pay in pain, grief and loss for the rest of their lives. Prosecuting them won’t stop the next foolishness person from buying a dog to overbreed or stud as an easy Money maker
Responsible breeders only breed from dogs who have been tested for health and temperament. They don’t overuse or abuse their breeding dogs. They’re increasingly in the minority.
Dog breeding needs greater regulation. I’m not a fan of increased legislation but if ban hobby breeders and puppy farms. Anyone breeding woukd have to show five generation family tree confirming necessary health/temperament checks
But this would be expensive and some would say intrude on civil liberties so it won’t happen

This is the point Blondiscot. if you are the victim of the attack, the last thing that interests you is who is responsible dog or owner. you are just aware that you have been attacked and have been injured or badly scared.

The only answer is some form of registration scheme for owner and dog. If there is a will to do it, it can be done.

Jaberwok I would prosecute parents who bring what are clearly dangerous dogs into houses with young children. There can be no excuse for not knowing that these dogs that teeter on the edge of being a banned breed are trained to be vicious and children are at risk.

I am not talking about cases where a previously well trained small dog attacks children. That is very rare and I can see that owners who have done all they could to train their dog properly and had no reason not to trust it, should not be held criminally responsible if the dog does attack a child and injure it.

But in almost every fatal case and very serious injury, in the home or outside to non-family members, the dog concerned has, as I have said, teetered on the edge of being a banned breed and the owners have bought them for their vicious natures.

It is a difficult one that's for sure. Should these parents be prosecuted for being totally irresponsible or do we put this dreadful tragedy down to ignorance? If the latter, how do you ever educate/persuade people to behave responsibly?

I think most of us on here who consider ourselves to be responsible dog owners have been at pains to point out that it is irresponsible owners who are to blame here, and most of us would also be in favour of measures to cut down on things like puppy farming and the reintroduction of some kind of training and/or licensing scheme. We all know that not all dogs are lucky enough to have responsible owners or be well trained - but that's not their fault. It's how you go about enforcing training or licensing schemes which is an issue too.

M0nica

What worries me most about this thread is how purblind and convinced dog owners are that everything is perfect in the dog owning world, all dogs are well trained, no dog owner is never careless and selfish. I also find the way they cheerfully dismiss any stories from anyone who has been attacked and injured by a dog as very unfortunate that such an event ever occurred, I mean ONLY 23 people are killed every year.

ONLY 23. It should not be any, and if 23 die, then every day hundreds of people are attacked by inadequately controlled or inadequately trained dogs and speaking as someone who sustained an injury when attacked by a dog. i do not give a toss whether dog or owner is most to blame. It doesn't change the injury I sustained.

In 2019 nearly 9,000 people needed hospital treatment after being attacked by dogs. Nearly 2,000 were children. Many will be scarred for life. Add to that those who are attacked but not badly enough to need hospital attention.

I am well aware that most dogs are owned and looked after by caring owners, but I would be much happier if the dog owners could also accept that there is a significant number of owners who aren't and their dogs frighten, intimidate and attack innocent adults and children

This is a significant problem and should not be dismissed the way it is by dog owners.

I think that’s unfair. Several of us have pointed out the problems we have with irresponsible dog owners.

I worked in Social Services for many years and of course met many people, a lot of whom owned dogs. Only one dog in all those years managed, after several attempts, to nip my ankle as I was leaving, a Jack Russell terrier who was extremely protective of his elderly owners. They were mortified , but we resolved the issue by them promising to shut 'Fred' in the kitchen on any further visits. I wouldn't have dreamt of making a fuss and risk their much loved dog being removed or worse.

What worries me most about this thread is how purblind and convinced dog owners are that everything is perfect in the dog owning world, all dogs are well trained, no dog owner is never careless and selfish

I don't think that is a true statement; reading the thread there are some very responsible dog owners stating their views on here who also condemn irresponsible dog owners.

I am sure my scheme could be improved, but what is needed is for owning a dog not from a known home and not having gone through proper procedures made a criminal offence.

It is the same with any law, there will always be people who try to avoid obeying the law, If we were only to introduce laws when we were sure we could ensure 100% compliance we wouldn't have any laws at all!

I cannot see that an online course and test and home visit could be impossible. Look at the requirements and hoops to be jumped through to get a driving license or to get approval to be an electrician or drive an HGV. We managed with them and I am sure people brought up the same objections.

What worries me most about this thread is how purblind and convinced dog owners are that everything is perfect in the dog owning world, all dogs are well trained, no dog owner is never careless and selfish. I also find the way they cheerfully dismiss any stories from anyone who has been attacked and injured by a dog as very unfortunate that such an event ever occurred, I mean ONLY 23 people are killed every year.

ONLY 23. It should not be any, and if 23 die, then every day hundreds of people are attacked by inadequately controlled or inadequately trained dogs and speaking as someone who sustained an injury when attacked by a dog. i do not give a toss whether dog or owner is most to blame. It doesn't change the injury I sustained.

In 2019 nearly 9,000 people needed hospital treatment after being attacked by dogs. Nearly 2,000 were children. Many will be scarred for life. Add to that those who are attacked but not badly enough to need hospital attention.

I am well aware that most dogs are owned and looked after by caring owners, but I would be much happier if the dog owners could also accept that there is a significant number of owners who aren't and their dogs frighten, intimidate and attack innocent adults and children

This is a significant problem and should not be dismissed the way it is by dog owners.

I don't see anything wrong with dog licences at all, the thing is , as happened in the past, responsible owners will buy one, irresponsible ones won't, and what would be the punishment for not? A fine? Again people just won't pay necessitating a court case, and what happens to the poor dog in question? Confiscation, destruction? rehoming, maybe? Micro chipping should certainly help, but again if somebody doesn't take the dog to a vet whose to know whether it's chipped or not. We had to take our spaniel to to a duty vet some time ago but no way did they check or even ask about her micro chip, so again it's not completely full proof.

Sadly I just don’t think it’s feasible MOnica. There will always be irresponsible owners just as there will always be people who neglect and kill their children. The only logical way forward that I can see is compulsory castration of male dogs in the same way that microchipping is now mandatory, except for dogs owned by licensed breeders, and a ban on selling dogs (indeed all animals) on social media or through classified ads. I recognise that there will always be people who don’t comply but in time a reduction in the number of dogs should result along with a reduction in the outlets from which they may lawfully be obtained and an increase in the cost of buying them.

X posts, different viewpoints, Jaberwok!

I don't see anything wrong with having to have a licence to own a dog - it used to be the norm.
At least then there should be a record of dog owners and anyone who suspects someone own what could be a potentially dangerous dog could be reported to the authorities.

Charging enough to cover the administration and to pay the costs of dog wardens shouldn't be out of reach of anyone who can afford to keep a dog.

Bearing in mind the number of dogs in circulation I think you would need a ministerial department devoted to this system if it ever became law. People get dogs from all sorts of outlets so policing potential dog owners would be hideously expensive to the tax payer. Too many loop holes would make this idea totally impractical. I can remember , many moons ago, going to the P.O to buy my yearly dog licence and the good lady at the counter implying that I was a dying breed!! Soon afterwards they were abandoned. It just became impossible to enforce.

I do wish that all the dog lovers on this thread, would show some sympathy and real understanding for those of us who have been attacked and injured by dogs .

Saying it is not he dog's fault, it is the owners is pointless, it is the dog that attacks and injures other people, not the owner. It would also help if they could forward some suggestions of how dog attacks could be limited by ensuring they are not owned by people who do not train them properly and do not allow them to become a danger to other people.

Perhaps all potential dog owners should have to go through a training course before being given a license to own a dog - license the person and not the dog. It could be online and require an online test at the end. Then there could be a home visit by someone from an approved dog charity to see where the dog and family live and who comprises the family, then they could get a license to own a range of breeds and size of dogs that were considered sutiable for their family situaation. Effectively doing what most reputable dog rescue centres already do. The license should need to be shown when buying a dog. Compulsory dog chipping could contain info about the type of family the dog was suitable for.

I know that doesn't deal with dog farmers and people dodging the system, but that is a problem now. It could be an offence to own a dog, if you have not gone through all the approval and license systems.

Yes, it will cost the potential dog owner, but if you cannot afford the license you cannot afford to own a dog.

I haven't had a particularly bad time with dogs.
I like them, but a lot are so unruly these days; like maniacs, jumping up, knocking you about, and being over the top.

I rent remember dogs being like that when I was younger, although my nan had a succession of vicious dogs. (She was not known for the best training methods!)

I was terrified of that dog. It was like running the gauntlet with a wolf.