Does anyone know anyone in Russia?

20 years ago i went to Russia on a trekking holiday. We had a team of 13 Russian men with us as guides and helpers. They were wonderful and one I remembered had lost two brothers in the Afghan war and he hated war, could not see the reason for invading another country. I often wonder what he is thinking about the war now.

Lizbethann55 you may be "shocked and disgusted" but how do you think those who had to listen to the lies and obfuscation have felt.

Do you have no sense that what was going on verged on civil war? We may not have picked up our pikes but that could always happen when you undermine democracy.

The "third estate" has been subverted for years. I certainly agree with volver there. This pervasive idea that a journalist has to bring the person who doesn't believe it's raining into the discussion if they are interviewing the person who says it is, has to stop. It is the journalists' job to look out of the window and tell us the truth not enable lies.

I would add to the list that we must strengthen the position of the speaker. MPs must ask a question and provide an answer, not a party political broadcast and not lies. If not the Commons itself is useless and we should just expand and broadcast the Committees. Otherwise, Lizbethann you may be asking just why we see an attack on the commons by a modern-day Guy Fawkes and think that shocking and disgusting too.

People take their democracy seriously and some will not forgive or forget those who try to destroy it, or their fellow travellers.

One small good thing that has come out of this terrible war is the level of journalism and technology.

The lies are less easy to tell and the truth less easy to stifle. The idea Russia put forward, that Ukraine killed the people who lay dead in Bucha, can be shown to be a lie by using satellite material.

Volodymyr Zelensky has brought the most desperate pictures of the killings in Ukraine into the chamber of the UN security council. As far as I am aware this is the first time they have had to see such things. The intelligence community appears to be getting 90 - 95% of its information from open sources as used by the general public.

Sadly this still does not stop those who want to believe what they see in the propaganda.

For a start, I wouldn't allow politicians' lies to go unchallenged in the media and I wouldn't allow false claims in election material. Then when politicians are under scrutiny for breaking the law, I wouldn't allow excuses like "we've moved on." I'd probably also want to see rules about the character of people and organisations who want to own media outlets.

I'm sure other grans have further actionable ideas.

So, Volver, what would you do?

Lizbethhann55 one of the most precious things we have here is a democratic system. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good. But democracy isn’t just turning up on the day and putting a cross in the box, then knowing that the count will be fair. Its about making the decision about where to put your cross based on truth.

Before Brexit we were told so many lies, and they are still telling lies. The £350million on the side of the bus. Rees Mogg was on the radio yesterday complaining about the EU treating us as a third party country, when that is exactly what we voted for. The Prime Minister, the Prime Minister of GB, lying about whether he was at an illegal party.

The extremes of governments lying to their own populations are what we are seeing in Russia right now. And if we refuse to admit that our government is lying to us right now, things will get worse. And if we don’t do something about it, its our fault.

I am shocked and disgusted by your comparisons!! I am not aware that the Russian people had a democratic vote about whether or not to bomb a country out of existence or to shoot people in the back of their heads while hands were tied behind their back., or to bomb maternity hospitals. Regardless of whether Brexit was good or bad, we had a democratic vote.

Governments do gag people. We have the Official Secrets Act. Obviously I know a lot of information covered by that is classified and it’s important that everyone and his dog aren’t party to it. But I do wonder how much information is withheld just because. The Brexit analogy is interesting. People do believe what their government tells them. So I guess I’ve answered my own question.

France 1986 it was announced that the air was clean over France, that the polluted air had stopped at the frontiers. No believed what I had heard on the BBC.
I few years later, in one of my classes, there was a meteorologist who was working at that time. He had been ‘told’ not to say anything.
The government had gagged those in the know.

Very well said volver.
Governments hold the news channels

But its a continiuum Lizbethann55. It didn't start out by telling them that they had to go and invade a neighbouring country to save their own. It started with them being told that the "others" weren't like them, and were trying to take advantage of them. Then that Putin was the only person to save them. Then that they had to do these things to save Russians. Then that Russians would never kill civilians, of course not.

So while it is obviously extreme what is happening in Russia and Ukraine, we must never think that we are immune to government lies. We were lied to before the Brexit vote and many people lapped it up because it played to their prejudices. We are being lied to today in this country and we need to know that.

I cannot believe that people on here are comparing what we were told about Brexit to what the Russian people are being told (or not told) about their country trying to bomb a free, neighbouring nation out of existence and committing horrendous war crimes in their endeavour to win!

The sanctions and hardships the Russian people are seeing just reinforce the lie Putin spreads that the West is 'out to destroy Russia' If and when the EU prioritises its member states over the UK over fuel, food etc the cry will go up that they've always hated us blah blah blah and there will be plenty that will believe. And we have a free press.

I can’t help wondering why more Russians aren’t very suspicious about why they are prevented from seeing unbiased news bulletins from around the world. Surely they must wonder what Putin’s motives are in only allowing them to access his version of events?

Ok some people would be gullible enough to fall for his lies but what about the professional, well educated Russians? Yes we know that those who try to protest face lengthy prison sentences but they are all facing severely reduced standards of living as a result of the West’s sanctions, so it must be pretty obvious that the rest of the world is condemning Putin’s appalling actions.

It seems to me that the Russian people are being told that the reasons for their economic woes are the actions of the West, and the sanctions we have put in place. That's easy for them to believe, if they are not hearing any different and if they think Mother Russia is unimpeachable.

It seems a trite comparison to make, but the people who voted for Brexit believed all the lies they were told, and there are some who still believe them. Rees-Mogg on LBC today told an articulate, well informed fisherman that his life wasn't worse after Brexit, it was actually better. But if is worse then it was the EU's fault because they are cross with us. It's like living in 1984.

DaisyAnne's post at 8:23 this morning is spot on, IMO.

Sago

Yes we do, we sent a message to say how sorry we were, the response was; Russia is strong, we will win and this will be all over in a month.
She is as hard as nails.

I’ve seen other reports about ordinary Russian people who believe everything they’ve been told by the state Russian news outlet. But I wonder, are they blind? Can they not see the businesses that have closed? Do they not see that shortages are beginning to bite? What about all the airlines that no longer fly to Russia? And that much social media has been closed? How can anyone see all these things happening and put it down to the world hating Russia?

Gillycats, I'm not very technical but your post gives me hope that Russian people can still get unbiased news sources. Thank you.

buy by

I read about a Russian woman living in UK who tried to tell her family in Russia the truth about the war in Ukraine - they refused to believe her and said the reports on TV over there are saying their troops are "rescuing" Ukranians from "nazis". She also said that it is getting more difficult to actually make contact and is worried their communications are being monitored.

I am surprised that some of you believe that most people supporting Russia and Putin feel they are protecting themselves rather than believing in what they are saying. Some will be being protective. I doubt it will be the older, less educated parents and grandparents. There is every likelihood that they have taken the brainwashing on board.

We need to understand and believe this can happen. After Brexit, you would think everyone would be aware. During Brexit, the people who believed were being told something that concurred with their existing thoughts. In both cases, it was/is that "the enemy" was "bad" in ways they had been drip-fed over decades to believe it was. In both cases, the propaganda is believed because the group who agree is large. Yet we all know majorities can be wrong.

There are small groups who know what is happening and try to get the message over. I don't think they will succeed. In decades to come, people will tell their children that everything the Brexit leavers said was true, however much evidence there is to the contrary. This happened in Germany. People continued believing that the reports of what had been done in their name could not be true. Some died believing that.

In Russia, they want their country to be good. They will continue to believe their forces went in to help and protect Russia. Of course they will.

That's why we have to fight for truth. We can see, all around the world, where our compliance could take democracy away from us buy constant and clever lies.

Pepper59 yes they do, through VPN’s. They’re using it, just like the Chinese.

Gillycats, Russian people do not have access to Tik Tok, or some other media outlets. Im not sure if YouTube etc are going to pull the plug. Difficulty being if they do, then people have no access to independent news sources like Reuters.

It’s an awful situation isn’t it. I think they have been completely brainwashed and those that aren’t risk consequences if they say anything. They have access to social media so you’d hope that the message will eventually filter through. Russians are lovely people and nobody can blame them for the evil in the Kremlin. ☹️

How horrible for your DiL Oldnproud. Similar responses have been seen in news reports, with Russian parents saying their children are lying when they tell them about the bombing of hospitals and residential areas. Some of these families may never heal the rifts being forged. So sad.

My own DiL is Russian.

She is very upset by her parents' attitude, and any 'discussion' of the situation led to heated and tearful exchanges.

First, before the invasion actually took place, they argued vehemently that there would be no invasion or war, that it was all lies.
When the invasion did take place, that turned to "It is not a war ..." (spouting all the de-nazification propaganda etc.)

This has now turned to "The West hates Russia and wants to destroy us ..."

DiL has found that the only way she can deal with their attitude without cutting them off completely is by totally avoiding this subject when she speaks to them.
It's very hard for her.

Initially, I thought that fear of saying anything that might indicate disloyalty to Russia / criticism of their leader might be behind their stance , but I don't believe that any more. It goes much deeper than that.