Read it in The Irish Times

VioletSky how about if the person insisted that their feelings would be hurt if you didn't say you believe the same as they do?

What if they come to, say, your book group and talk a lot about how the message of that session's book is all about their religion?
Or they say nothing at the group but sit silently holding their holy book?

* Elegran* I will find the research for you again, I just want to confirm with you that you will accept studies that happened in recent years as the most current knowledge and not out of date because obviously we have had a pandemic and there have been other priorities since.

Galaxy

VS to me that's like saying what if the only way to help someone is to believe in God, its not something that's possible for me to do. I can say it but I would be lying. And that's the problem for lots of people it is a lie and there is always a line where it is a lie. So for some the line is sport for some its relationships but there is always a point for most people where they cant pretend.

O don't agree with a person of any religion saying that believing in God is the only way and I would politely ask that they don't do that.

But if someone says they will pray for me, and it happens many times, I would appreciate their intent even if I didn't feel it would help.

I don't have faith bit I appreciate it must be something wonderful and helpful for those that do.

I call myself an agnostic but it is probably more that I just don't treat athiesim like it is a belief when it is a lack of one.

Which means I wouldn't be causing harm by going around talking about religion being nonsense or how important my atheism was.

Simply, because I don't fully understand something, doesn't mean I have any right to to hurt another's feelings about it or say it isn't valid.

And that is subject that doesn't have biological evidence to suggest that it is happening for a reason and a scientific amd medical community backing it.

For instance, there have always been men who experienced domestic abuse and needed help but I'm sure none of them expected to be able to take part in a women's support group or to stay in a women's refuge.
Now, tho, some men who claim to be women are demanding to do these things and it is being allowed - to the detriment of women.

Does 'dead gendering' mean referring to a transperson's real sex?
Mostly, in ordinary life, there'd be no reason to do that. However, when talking about women's rights there is every need to be clear about who is female and who is not.

Mollygo dead gendering is one of those new words/phrases that we have now. Like no debate and cancel culture and terf and cis.
They're used to "other" people, particularly women.

VioletSky

Rosie51

What if the only help and support that works when someone needs to deal with gender dysphoria is to be accepted as the gender they feel they are, be referred to with those gender pronouns and be called women or men as appropriate?

It's easy for me to discuss trans as science has highlighted differences in genes for transgender individuals and biology is much more complex than having different sex organs as highlighted by fetal development.

The other things you mention, I don't know if any research has been done or what the conclusions are but they seem to me to be different to gender dysphoria having only the word "trans" in common and that is only a descriptor not a name for a condition

Could you post links to those studies where science has highlighted differences in genes for transgender individuals, please? They may have been discussed already in GN, but not recently. The actual published reports of the studies would be better than media headlines, which are often inaccurate guides to what a study found.

We support trans. Men. Women.
Not dead gendering? What’s that?

Along with the majority of trans, I support trans who don’t support the erosion of female rights.

I don’t support the malign few trans, but you have the right to do so.

Errors! Urgh. Phone opposed to a real keyboard. Apologies!

This is all just filibustering to stop trans supporter from having a supportive discussion.

S/he said, I don't like that adjective, insult, say what I like, as infinitum. No change. No real two sided discussion. Just making those with opposing views shut up.

We support trans. Men. Women. Not dead gendering.

VioletSky

So I shall stop flouncing then.

I will even avoid a silly word that doesn't detract from individual women at all.
Thank you for that VS.
It’s a good start to the morning and I look forward to your ceasing to use that rude word which you know many find offensive.

Now to those opposing views.
You have read, though possibly not understood, posters like DD who say
I have no objection to transpeople living their best lives and wish them well. I do, however, object to the mangling of the language where it comes to adult human females, and to the erosion of women's rights in order to allow transwomen to believe that they are women.

Are you saying, in your polite and reasonable way that you disagree with what DD and others say, and that you agree with the erosion of women’s rights in order to accommodate the small group of trans who wish to erode female rights?
Those who claim that AHF have
no right to safe spaces where males are not allowed,
no right to being imprisoned separately from males claiming to be women,
no right to fair competition in sport,
no right to the choice of being treated by a female as opposed to someone who falsely claims to be female?
Have I got that right? You support that small group of trans who agree with the erosion of female rights, despite the fact that most trans do not want that, do not want trans to be portrayed in that way and who wish to live peaceful lives not represented by the malign minority?

VS to me that's like saying what if the only way to help someone is to believe in God, its not something that's possible for me to do. I can say it but I would be lying. And that's the problem for lots of people it is a lie and there is always a line where it is a lie. So for some the line is sport for some its relationships but there is always a point for most people where they cant pretend.

Rosie51

What if the only help and support that works when someone needs to deal with gender dysphoria is to be accepted as the gender they feel they are, be referred to with those gender pronouns and be called women or men as appropriate?

It's easy for me to discuss trans as science has highlighted differences in genes for transgender individuals and biology is much more complex than having different sex organs as highlighted by fetal development.

The other things you mention, I don't know if any research has been done or what the conclusions are but they seem to me to be different to gender dysphoria having only the word "trans" in common and that is only a descriptor not a name for a condition

VioletSky

Rosie51

What do you think about gender dysphoria?

I think it's a debilitating condition, maybe a mental condition, that affects an individual in an impactful way. I would hope that any individual would receive all the help, support and counselling needed to enable them to live with this condition, and come through any distress they are experiencing.

VS what do you think about transracial, transage, or transspecies individuals? What do you think about females who feel or are religiously or culturally excluded by "trans inclusion"?

Rosie51

What do you think about gender dysphoria?

Is it a problem to accept trans women under the umbrella of women while still respecting that trans women and women need different considerations in regards to some things?

Why do we need to differentiate between men and women at all? If we respect that men and women need different considerations in regards to some things do we need these differentiations ? Most would say yes, we do!! Transwomen are male, no amount of kindness etc will eradicate that biologically transwomen are male. Their medical needs, fragilities, and outcomes are different to females. It just confuses everything that needs to be differentiated by sex. For far too long every medical outcome has been predicated on the male model, with females being seen as 'lesser males' At last medicine and medical training is catching up. Goodness, some medical schools are actually gasp including female biology and skeletal differences into their studies...

And after thanking Doodledog I too am off to bed. Thankfully it's much cooler here and I think sleep is within sight

Agreed, Rosie. And your post of 00.57 is spot on, too.

Is that the time? I am heading to bed now

FarNorth

*if the GC require an adjective*

We are not the ones who came up with the term 'transwoman'.
'Trans' in 'transwoman' is not an adjective because it is not describing a woman, and never has done.

Absolutely!

GagaJo If it's adjectives you're after, I think you'll find 'real' and 'artificial' are more accurate, but they seem harsh and unkind to me.
I have no wish to add to the difficulties transgender people face. My DIL's cousin is a transwoman who knows they remain male, but is happier living in a stereotypical female way. This person wants to live quietly, peacefully without fuss. This person despises the whole TRA and their allies for causing so many problems. This person is terrified the backlash from people that 'have no skin in the game' will ruin and remove the peaceful acceptance they have experienced over the past 15 years.

things kept getting nasty. That is a perfect example of the passive voice .

It reminds me of when my children would say 'it got broken' rather than 'I broke it'. When it's coupled with digs about others it becomes passive aggression.

Realistically I have always agreed on these threads that there are issues and recognised some areas where women could be impacted unfairly and I've pointed out how that shouldn't happen as being a woman is a protected characteristic under the equality act as is being a trans woman.

I would say that women should not be impacted unfairly because that would be unfair. The fact that both women and transwomen are protected characteristics is neither here nor there. Decent people don't need legislation to tell them that something is wrong, and it's telling that your acceptance that women should not be impacted negatively is because they are covered by the EA.

Is it a problem to accept trans women under the umbrella of women while still respecting that trans women and women need different considerations in regards to some things?
That is too vague. In principle, it could be fair enough. I repeat for the gazillionth time that I have no wish to disrespect transpeople, but much depends on what you mean by 'the umbrella of women', and what 'different considerations' and 'some things' actually mean.

If 'the umbrella of women' means accepting that people can change biological sex, and if 'some things' include giving male bodied people open access to women's spaces, and the right to 'compete' in sport, and the removal of female terms from the language, then yes, it would be a problem.

FarNorth

^Is it a problem to accept trans women under the umbrella of women while still respecting that trans women and women need different considerations in regards to some things?^

Yes, VS, of course it is a problem because transwomen are not women and pretending that they are leads to situations which can be unfair / upsetting / dangerous for women and girls.

Please could you clarify this further?

I specifically mentioned having different considerations to ensure women are protected..

So please could you clarify, if you don't cceot trans women as women what would you like to see happen instead?

Is it a problem to accept trans women under the umbrella of women while still respecting that trans women and women need different considerations in regards to some things?

Yes, VS, of course it is a problem because transwomen are not women and pretending that they are leads to situations which can be unfair / upsetting / dangerous for women and girls.

GagaJo

Rosie51

Well the easy, simple, kind, but accurate way to differentiate is women and transwomen. If 100% accuracy and honesty is required then it's trans identified males, but I understand transwomen don't like that , so I don't use it. I don't think that makes me dishonest, just considerate of other people's feelings.

We could just agree on women.

But if the GC require an adjective, trans and cis are currently the ones in use.

Who asked women whether they were happy to be grouped with some men who wanted to be women? Are women to be consulted on anything that affects them, or are we just to roll over and accept anything men wish to enforce on us? I thought the suffragettes endured force feeding and the like to say we won't roll over, we have a voice, we have opinions, we are equal to men!!!
If an adjective is required it surely is for those that do not meet the normal eligibility for the group. Therefore women and transwomen to differentiate between females and males that 'identify' outwith their traditional grouping.
Women was and is a complete and accurate descriptor, adult human female. Do you include male dogs in the group bitches, rams in the group designated ewes, stallions in the group designated mares? If not, why not? Do you recommend trying to milk a bull?

if the GC require an adjective

We are not the ones who came up with the term 'transwoman'.
'Trans' in 'transwoman' is not an adjective because it is not describing a woman, and never has done.

But if you know you are in the right gender, then the opposite must be possible for some. It is logical. Some match. Some don't.

I don't know I am in the right gender. I do not believe that 'gender' is a concrete or tangible thing. It is a set of socially constructed behaviours that change over time and place.

Some of my behaviour and 'presentation' is recognisably what would be considered female, and some of it is not. I think that this is the case for most people. I don't want to see people pigeonholed into 'womanly' or 'manly' stereotypes - it has taken too many years to move away from those restrictions.

Gender is not real, to me. Again, I am sick of saying so, and reiterating that this is why I object to being referred to as 'cis' - or 'someone whose identity matches the gender they were assigned at birth'. I object to that on so many levels, as do many other women.

If you continue to use 'cis', knowing that a lot of women object to it, there is absolutely nothing I can do to stop you, but you can't pretend that it is a neutral term, or that you have no agenda when you use it - it is not, and you absolutely do. It is fully loaded with TRA signifiers, and I don't believe for a minute that you are not aware of that.

I've read it

Realistically I have always agreed on these threads that there are issues and recognised some areas where women could be impacted unfairly and I've pointed out how that shouldn't happen as being a woman is a protected characteristic under the equality act as is being a trans woman.

The only real difference is I do so from a trans woman are women stance...

Is it a problem to accept trans women under the umbrella of women while still respecting that trans women and women need different considerations in regards to some things?