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Read it in The Irish Times

(132 Posts)
Mollygo Thu 21-Jul-22 11:49:45

Trans rights a question of reasonableness and common sense

There is no absolute human right to erase gendered thought and language on a widespread basis

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I sense that there is a real danger for transgender people that ideological activism by a tiny minority may lose them the goodwill and empathy of the great majority.
Michael McDowell

I have nothing but complete empathy for any person who finds themselves having to confront a deep-seated conviction that their ostensible physical sex does not correspond with their gender. That self-understanding or conviction is not a matter of sexual orientation – conveniently divided by some into heterosexual, bisexual and homosexual. Orientation or attraction varies among people with gender dysphoria as much as it does with all other people.

Moreover, I also accept that many trans people endure a great deal of profoundly painful rejection and/or suspicion from those who neither understand nor empathise in any way with their situation. They naturally see such rejection as a form of discrimination and, moreover, an unjust discrimination that infringes their human rights.

And that is where things become complex. Current thinking favours elimination of all forms of discrimination on the ground that it necessarily involves inequality.

But that raises the question as to whether society or the Irish Constitution is bound by anti-discriminatory principles to regard everyone for all purposes simply as a human citizen with an innate human right to self-identify as male, female, fluid, transgender, or, indeed, non-gendered.

I incline to the view that for the vast majority of citizens, distinction based on ostensible physical sex is very important in many but not all aspects of our social existence. Sex cannot simply be wished away as a concept or as a social reality. The growth of women’s equality as a strong anti-discriminatory movement in the last hundred years demonstrates that distinction between ostensible physical sex is hugely important. While legal and economic inequality for women is being tackled with varying degrees of success, the demands from within the trans community for the large-scale dismantling of distinction based on ostensible physical sex is not necessarily a common cause with feminism.

Take, for instance, sport. In some, but not all, areas of competitive sport, women wish to compete separately from men. This is not a relic of outdated ideology but is based on an obvious truth – that men are physically more likely to win than women in sports like running, rugby, all kinds of football, swimming, wrestling, boxing and many others.

To require people with objectively male physiques to compete against other such people and people with objectively female physiques to compete with other such people is only fair if that is the way that the great majority of competitors want. Achieving such objective athletic fairness and justice, I think, trumps any sense of injustice that a person born with a male body and identifying as a woman may feel if excluded from competing in an all-women’s event.

Does that mean that we prohibit gender self-identification for all purposes? I don’t think so. If a person I previously assumed was male tells me that he wants to be dealt with as she or her, perhaps good manners and empathy requires me to do that. Those who wish to signal their preferred mode of address should be free to do so.

But it does not, in my opinion, mean that we all must adopt gender-neutral language such as “chest-feeding”, “men with wombs”, “people who menstruate” and the like, in order to spare the feelings of some of those with gender dysphoria.

In the end it is a question of reasonableness and common sense. I think that the great majority of people would happily legislate to ensure that identity documents can easily be changed to accommodate the genuine wishes of people with dysphoria. By the same token, many people may not want to end gender-based changing rooms and bathroom facilities in all cases or to legally require further such facilities for transgender people.

For the great, great majority, gender-based language, thought, concepts and social convention are really part of what we are – just as central to our personalities as the identity-convictions of trans people are to them. It isn’t a question of thoughtlessness.

That trans people experience rejection as a consequence of our civilisation’s social recognition and distinctions of sex and gender does not confer on them an absolute human right to erase gendered thought and language on a widespread basis.

While anyone can cite statistics, studies tend to suggest that adult dysphoria is very rare, and much rarer in people born women than men.

I sense that there is a real danger for transgender people that ideological activism by a tiny minority may lose them the goodwill and empathy of the great majority. That would be a pity.

Michael McDowell is a barrister and a former minister for justice

Chewbacca Sat 23-Jul-22 09:17:46

Mollygo dead gendering is one of those new words/phrases that we have now. Like no debate and cancel culture and terf and cis.
They're used to "other" people, particularly women.

FarNorth Sat 23-Jul-22 09:37:23

Does 'dead gendering' mean referring to a transperson's real sex?
Mostly, in ordinary life, there'd be no reason to do that. However, when talking about women's rights there is every need to be clear about who is female and who is not.

FarNorth Sat 23-Jul-22 09:41:52

For instance, there have always been men who experienced domestic abuse and needed help but I'm sure none of them expected to be able to take part in a women's support group or to stay in a women's refuge.
Now, tho, some men who claim to be women are demanding to do these things and it is being allowed - to the detriment of women.

VioletSky Sat 23-Jul-22 09:50:59

Galaxy

VS to me that's like saying what if the only way to help someone is to believe in God, its not something that's possible for me to do. I can say it but I would be lying. And that's the problem for lots of people it is a lie and there is always a line where it is a lie. So for some the line is sport for some its relationships but there is always a point for most people where they cant pretend.

O don't agree with a person of any religion saying that believing in God is the only way and I would politely ask that they don't do that.

But if someone says they will pray for me, and it happens many times, I would appreciate their intent even if I didn't feel it would help.

I don't have faith bit I appreciate it must be something wonderful and helpful for those that do.

I call myself an agnostic but it is probably more that I just don't treat athiesim like it is a belief when it is a lack of one.

Which means I wouldn't be causing harm by going around talking about religion being nonsense or how important my atheism was.

Simply, because I don't fully understand something, doesn't mean I have any right to to hurt another's feelings about it or say it isn't valid.

And that is subject that doesn't have biological evidence to suggest that it is happening for a reason and a scientific amd medical community backing it.

VioletSky Sat 23-Jul-22 09:56:46

* Elegran* I will find the research for you again, I just want to confirm with you that you will accept studies that happened in recent years as the most current knowledge and not out of date because obviously we have had a pandemic and there have been other priorities since.

FarNorth Sat 23-Jul-22 10:04:12

VioletSky how about if the person insisted that their feelings would be hurt if you didn't say you believe the same as they do?

What if they come to, say, your book group and talk a lot about how the message of that session's book is all about their religion?
Or they say nothing at the group but sit silently holding their holy book?

FarNorth Sat 23-Jul-22 10:06:40

In case it's not obvious, I'm saying that those things are equivalent to the things transactivists say and do.

Mollygo Sat 23-Jul-22 10:08:36

Chewbacca

Mollygo dead gendering is one of those new words/phrases that we have now. Like no debate and cancel culture and terf and cis.
They're used to "other" people, particularly women.

Thanks Chewbacca. It seems there’s no end to the ‘othering’ of women that goes on.

Galaxy Sat 23-Jul-22 10:12:38

We cant operate like that VS or have any meaningful discussions on complex issues. I find it really offensive that you suggest that people shouldnt be able to mention how important their atheism is to them. So you see no conversation can occur where no one is offended unless you stick to jam making. And even that can be contentious. I frequently used to have conversations about faith Andy atheism with my local vicar, in fact he went out of his way to talk about it with me, we both managed it.

Galaxy Sat 23-Jul-22 10:14:13

The fact that I am offended by the thought of not discussing atheism ( you may have been referring to your own 'rules' for yourself) is neither here or there. I dont have the right to not be offended.

Galaxy Sat 23-Jul-22 10:15:22

I have offended myself with my own typosgrin. And not Andy.

Mollygo Sat 23-Jul-22 10:15:35

Mollygo

VioletSky

So I shall stop flouncing then.

I will even avoid a silly word that doesn't detract from individual women at all.
Thank you for that VS.
It’s a good start to the morning and I look forward to your ceasing to use that rude word which you know many find offensive.

Now to those opposing views.
You have read, though possibly not understood, posters like DD who say
I have no objection to transpeople living their best lives and wish them well. I do, however, object to the mangling of the language where it comes to adult human females, and to the erosion of women's rights in order to allow transwomen to believe that they are women.

Are you saying, in your polite and reasonable way that you disagree with what DD and others say, and that you agree with the erosion of women’s rights in order to accommodate the small group of trans who wish to erode female rights?
Those who claim that AHF have
no right to safe spaces where males are not allowed,
no right to being imprisoned separately from males claiming to be women,
no right to fair competition in sport,
no right to the choice of being treated by a female as opposed to someone who falsely claims to be female?
Have I got that right? You support that small group of trans who agree with the erosion of female rights, despite the fact that most trans do not want that, do not want trans to be portrayed in that way and who wish to live peaceful lives not represented by the malign minority?

Just in case you missed it VS. . .
Have I got that right? You support that small group of trans who agree with the erosion of female rights, despite the fact that most trans do not want that, do not want trans to be portrayed in that way and who wish to live peaceful lives not represented by the malign minority?
You can of course choose not to answer. grin

VioletSky Sat 23-Jul-22 10:21:05

FarNorth

VioletSky how about if the person insisted that their feelings would be hurt if you didn't say you believe the same as they do?

What if they come to, say, your book group and talk a lot about how the message of that session's book is all about their religion?
Or they say nothing at the group but sit silently holding their holy book?

I don't know, that has never happened. I've always been respectful of others beliefs.

Yet, is being trans a belief?

Science has already found differences in trans people, if one day science stands up and says 100% this person's mind and body have developed in a way that are opposed to each other, can we then say, we will do everything in our power to help trans people express who they are and not how they look?

VioletSky Sat 23-Jul-22 10:26:33

Mollygo I realise people want to ask me a lot of questions and I apologise I don't always have time to answer all of them.

No I don't support any extreme views trying to erode another protected groups rights.

I am a down the middle, common sense, polite and reasonable discussion advocate looking for a sensible way forward.

I have genuinely tried to make that very clear in the past.

VioletSky Sat 23-Jul-22 10:32:26

Galaxy

We cant operate like that VS or have any meaningful discussions on complex issues. I find it really offensive that you suggest that people shouldnt be able to mention how important their atheism is to them. So you see no conversation can occur where no one is offended unless you stick to jam making. And even that can be contentious. I frequently used to have conversations about faith Andy atheism with my local vicar, in fact he went out of his way to talk about it with me, we both managed it.

No that is not what I meant.

I do not think others have the right to push their religion (belief) on me and tell me I must listen or must follow.

I also do not think I have a right to push atheism on anyone else and push my belief on them or tell them they must listen or follow.

But belief is different to evidence based science.

Doodledog Sat 23-Jul-22 10:38:23

GagaJo

This is all just filibustering to stop trans supporter from having a supportive discussion.

S/he said, I don't like that adjective, insult, say what I like, as infinitum. No change. No real two sided discussion. Just making those with opposing views shut up.

We support trans. Men. Women. Not dead gendering.

What you see as filibustering I see as exposing the passive aggression, the diversion, the victim-blaming and the DARVOing, the digs, the minimising of others’ beliefs and the other tactics that attempt to derail the conversation.

I also get frustrated at the lack of progress in actual discussion, but when people on the GC side ask questions that can’t be answered they are ignored. We repeat the questions (sometimes more than once) and they continue to be ignored. The conversation stalls as a result, so we try again, and are accused of making demands and of hectoring or even suggestions that we are bullying, which is ridiculous. IMO tactics such as saying I will use a term that I know people on this thread find offensive’, because I can. If you politely and kindly object, I will minimise your objections, dismiss them, ignore the fact that my own behaviour was deliberately antagonistic and blame you for being upset. When you call out this behaviour for what it is, I will again attack you for over-sensitivity and tell you that unless you engage in the way I wish to I will leave the conversation. are attempts at bullying, however much they are couched in apparent politeness.

I accept that it may be tedious for others to keep seeing this being called out, but the alternative is to engage on those terms, which (as the tactics are designed to do) confuses the issue and would leave me with one hand tied behind my back.

If people refuse to engage with a discussion, whether by stropping/flouncing/crying ‘bully’ or refusing to answer questions there can be no progress.

On this thread I have asked whether ‘supporters’* see a corollary between white people identifying as black and men identifying as women? Do you have an opinion on that?

*For avoidance of doubt - I use the term ‘supporters’ under duress in this context, and do not imply by that use that those who are gender critical are not supportive of transpeople. If that inference is made, and if those who disagree that TWAW are in any way unsupportive I will revert to TRAs or ‘allies’ unless someone can suggest a genuinely neutral term. Language matters.

VioletSky Sat 23-Jul-22 10:42:47

Here is one example of science based evidence. Some of the first of its kind. I have no doubt more will be found.

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205084203.htm

I will try and find the time to address all questions to me and I hope that I can make myself understood clearly enough that I don't have to use part of that time rectifying misunderstandings about what I mean

FarNorth Sat 23-Jul-22 10:46:43

"A politician (and party leader) wants to ban the word ‘mother’ in the name of ‘LGBTQ+’ inclusion but thinks it’s fine to call himself a ‘dad’ in his bio. Is it any wonder women see this as targeted erasure?"

VioletSky Sat 23-Jul-22 10:48:32

FarNorth that's interesting but I can't see where it says he wants to ban the word "mother"?

Witzend Sat 23-Jul-22 10:48:48

Must say I’m nostalgic for the days when ‘gender’ was largely associated with the foreign language nouns - masculine, feminine, neuter - that I had to learn.

Doodledog Sat 23-Jul-22 11:00:05

VioletSky

FarNorth that's interesting but I can't see where it says he wants to ban the word "mother"?

It’s a quaint, old-fashioned word for the apparently ‘inclusive-to-LGBT’ word ‘birthing parent’.

Never mind that the lie is given to that statement by the fact that lesbians are very often mothers, and fathers are parents too - let’s cut out references to women altogether and make childbirth‘gender-neutral! ?

Chewbacca Sat 23-Jul-22 11:01:55

I will use a term that I know people on this thread find offensive’, because I can. If you politely and kindly object, I will minimise your objections, dismiss them, ignore the fact that my own behaviour was deliberately antagonistic and blame you for being upset. When you call out this behaviour for what it is, I will again attack you for over-sensitivity and tell you that unless you engage in the way I wish to I will leave the conversation. are attempts at bullying, however much they are couched in apparent politeness.

You've articulated the problem precisely Doodledog; it makes debate nigh on impossible.

Mollygo Sat 23-Jul-22 11:02:42

VioletSky

Mollygo I realise people want to ask me a lot of questions and I apologise I don't always have time to answer all of them.

No I don't support any extreme views trying to erode another protected groups rights.

I am a down the middle, common sense, polite and reasonable discussion advocate looking for a sensible way forward.

I have genuinely tried to make that very clear in the past.

Good.
So why argue with others who are equally polite and reasonable, who equally don't support any extreme views trying to erode another protected groups rights?

Doodledog Sat 23-Jul-22 11:03:31

VioletSky

FarNorth that's interesting but I can't see where it says he wants to ban the word "mother"?

It’s a useful concept in sociology, when looking at the differences between male and female socialisation, and other ways in which behavioural expectations are based on sex. But IMO it is meaningless as used by the trans lobby.

VioletSky Sat 23-Jul-22 11:05:24

Mollygo

Please can you clarify what you mean?