ABC Pride book from Dorling Kindersley, for young children

Fit your explanations to the age of the child.

Age isn't necessarily an indicator, it needs emotional maturity too in a lot of cases.

GD aged 10 most definitely is embarrassed and awkward about her developing breasts and that's absolutely perfectly normal. If she was steered in the direction of a book like this, or be referred onto a "safeguarding lead" or anyone else to discuss "body image", I can only imagine what her parents would do! Why would anyone want to make a young girl feel, that her perfectly normal feelings of shyness and awkwardness about her changing body, is something that needs to be addressed in some way?

Aren't all girls embarrassed by breast buds? It's a rite of passage. Plus, it's highly doubtful a child will talk about their bodies with a member of staff. I can't imagine that scenario occuring.
Some certainly do at primary school. It’s the end of the world when you’re the only one in Y5 with a bra and periods, and not much better in Y6 when you’re a 34C cup or bigger.
Things have improved- everyone comes to school in PE kit/tracksuit on PE days so no changing, knowing where the emergency pads are kept, single sex toilets with bolts on doors etc, but the sheer unfairness of it means the girls seek out someone to confide in. They want to know “Why me?”
I did ask upthread, who VS would refer these children on to, but I must have missed the answer.

Yes, or they were in my day and my daughter's which is why I chose that scenario - it must be commonplace.

It was something said upthread that made me wonder - can't remember by whom or what it was, but on the lines that children had to be taken seriously when they expressed dissatisfaction with their developing bodies.

And if anything WAS referred, it would only be to the safe guarding lead. As many, many other issues are.

Aren't all girls embarrassed by breast buds? It's a rite of passage. Plus, it's highly doubtful a child will talk about their bodies with a member of staff. I can't imagine that scenario occuring.

What was ‘Rainbow’s’ original name?
Machete? Phallus? Kitten-kicker?
It’s all so anti male.

GagaJo

We've strayed an awfully long way away from the OP.

Starting to steer into the usual direction of 'enouraging children to be trans', 'hormones' and 'Stonewall'.

We have, but that happens on a lot of threads. To backtrack a bit, I said this this morning but nobody replied:

I would like to ask a straightforward question as someone whose only experience of children is when I had my own, and when I was a child myself. If a child is embarrassed by (for example) budding breasts and comments on it, would that automatically be taken as a sign of so-called 'gender' confusion, or would it be seen in the same way as someone commenting that she hates her knobbly knees, or her sticky-out ears? Basically I am asking 'at what point would an adult step in and refer her, and to whom would a child who'd commented on her ears or knees be referred?'

Do you have any thoughts? As I say, I don't have experience of working with children, and trans issues were not a matter for schools when mine were young.

Jesus Christ FN
That is terrifying.

The OP is about an ABC book which suggests things to children that they really shouldn't have to be thinking about.
Just as the mum in my previous post suggested to her son that being a girl was a real option for him.
The child had no idea at all where that could lead him after being coached for most of his childhood to believe it.

We've strayed an awfully long way away from the OP.

Starting to steer into the usual direction of 'enouraging children to be trans', 'hormones' and 'Stonewall'.

Here is GirlGuiding featuring a 'transgirl' in Rainbows, which is for ages 4-7.
The whole thing is based on stereotypes and 'what will people think'.

"Jane and her husband Mike started noticing that Rainbow identified more with female characters, toys and books when she was 18 months old. ‘Some people suggested we just say no, encourage her to identify with the male characters, but how can you explain that to a young child? To what end? No to playing with toys she loved or characters she loved to pretend to be? It felt cruel to say no, to the say the least.’"

There is a lot more in that vein.
Then :

"‘One day she said to us in a quiet voice, “My real name is Rainbow”.
'Until you’re in that position as a parent you cannot know how you will react. I could have laughed and said, “No it’s not.” I could have compartmentalised her life: “OK you can be Rainbow at home, but not at school." We didn’t take this route. Instead we asked, “Can you tell us a bit more about how you feel? There are some boys who like all the things that society thinks are for girls but know themselves to be boys, and there are some who feel like they are girls inside."

‘My child explained, “It’s the second one.”"

That sounds like proof positive, right?
To me it sounds like the boy child has taken on board that, in his family, it is essential to actually 'be a girl' in order to live as he wants.

girlguiding.foleon.com/guiding-magazine/guiding-summer-2022/rainbow-girl

That's the point ElaineI.
Children will accept this stuff and it is ridiculous.
Being the other gender sex is not possible.

It's easy to think "Oh, I'm relaxed about this, it's not a problem." but it really is for children who are being caught up in it.

. . .though some children at that age want to be the other gender which doesn't bother me. . .

It wouldn't bother me either if a six year old girl said she wanted to be a boy (or the other way round, obviously). But it would bother me if saying so meant that she was referred for therapy or encouraged to explore those feelings to the point where she wanted to bind her breasts at 10, and go down the route of 'transitioning' so young.

Let children be who and what they want. All this brainwashing them into conformity is sad.
And when the ‘conformity’ tells them things that aren’t true-that boys grow up to be women and girls grow up to be men-which doesn’t need to be put into children’s minds when they are still working out what they are that’s even more sad.
Such a lot of work has been put into non stereotyping children at school if not at home-let girls wear the bat man costume and boys dress up in the bridesmaids dress, construction toys are for all, as is the ‘home corner’ play. All in order to let children work out how they see themselves and not to define themselves as ‘boy’ or ‘girl’ because of what they choose to play with.
Now they are being brainwashed into stereotypes again in an “if they do that they might be . . . let’s counsel them” type of way.

So long as it is not still in the advice given to nursery staff. Their word is taken as gospel in some circles.

Goodness what a long thread! DGS1 started lessons including gender in the spring this year. He was in P4 aged 8. The teacher touched on a lot of different things. Proper names for body parts, touching the area under pants, stereotyping. He is way ahead of ABC though so if it is geared for 3 to age 5/6 then maybe a bit OTT though some children at that age want to be the other gender which doesn't bother me. This book might be useful for those children. Most children of that age just accept things though (unless you are DGD with many many questions about everything) and probably wouldn't bat an eyelid.

I suspect it might have been the thousands of replies to the original statement all saying versions of have you lost your mind.

Galaxy

Stonewall have retracted it Doodle. I appreciate it's hard to keep track as it's less than 24 hours since they made the statement. They appear to have blocked replies to their shiny new statement clarifying their position.

Have they?

Too barmy even for them?

Stonewall have retracted it Doodle. I appreciate it's hard to keep track as it's less than 24 hours since they made the statement. They appear to have blocked replies to their shiny new statement clarifying their position.

Nope I reject conformity. Girls can play rugby, boys can wear dresses and make up because all of these things have no impact on if you are a boy or a girl.

See, that's what I think too. And to me it is brainwashing into conformity to say that if what they want is to wear a princess outfit as a boy then they must be trans.

I am not in favour of making children to conform - in my experience people who insist on conformity are almost by definition not the ones I'd choose to make the rules - and that is one of the reasons why I feel that the idea that someone 'recognises their trans identity' at two years old is ridiculous. 'Conform to a stereotype or we will refer you for suspected trans tendencies' doesn't sit right by me at all.

FarNorth

You know a couple of men who now present in ways that are stereotypical for women.
That is fact as will be clear, to them if to no-one else, if they need any male-specific healthcare

I accept them as women. Which is what they want.

I appreciate others see it differently, but they choose their friends carefully.

Let children be who and what they want. All this brainwashing them into conformity is sad.

I agree with FN. If one of mine had wanted to wear nail varnish I wouldn't have encouraged it if it had been the girl and thought that if the boy did it he might be trans.

I am not saying that you would think that, GagaJo - but Stonewall are now saying that transpeople are born that way, and that two year olds 'are recognising their trans identity'. Surely this thinking must contribute to the number of children who embark on 'transitioning' and later regret it?

You know a couple of men who now present in ways that are stereotypical for women.
That is fact as will be clear, to them if to no-one else, if they need any male-specific healthcare