Archie Battersbee

Honeysuckleberries

Has anyone an explanation as to why anyone who is brain stem dead is put on life support machines? Perhaps all this could have been avoided if this poor little lad hadn’t been put on life support to start with. I am certainly not criticising anyone for decisions made but just wondered if anyone might know.

The person is already on life support before it’s confirmed that they are brain stem dead Honeysuckleberries. If when found the person still has a heartbeat everything possible is done to save their life. Brain death is confirmed or not after extensive tests carried out once on ITU.

I agree with Baggs and Casdon, she has to carry on blaming everyone else as looking at herself and the lead up to Archie hanging himself are just too painful and the guilt must be overwhelming.
My respect goes to the medical and nursing staff who have had to put up with all this whilst doing a highly skilled job in very difficult circumstances.
I have read the judgement and it is very clear that all the allegations were examined and dismissed, and the Judge sounded extremely patient and fair.

Anniebach

The family want an investigation and enquiry

this is so so wrong, in so many ways. I hope it will be denied.

Thank you Casdon for your insight.

I think there is a lot to come to light about this poor child.

But it does not have to come to light to us or indeed anyone else. It is none of our business; but the media just love this stuff.

If it is found that there is anything in the enquiry/PM that is useful knowledge for parents etc., then of course that should be disseminated to prevent other deaths.

I’m afraid that, if you use the media you have to deal with it’s ongoing interest.

And I don't think it's up to us to decide what is in the public interest. As difficult as that might be.

The media only has all this information because Archie's mum wants to give interviews. She's very prominent on numerous social media sites. It's a great shame because there are people who believe the hospital has been negligent and it really hasn't.

This has gone on long enough now, a line should be drawn under this, I feel desperately sorry for the family and what they have gone through but the hospital did their best for Archie in impossible circumstances. The family seem unable to accept that the hospital and the courts were solely thinking of what was best for Archie and what they wanted was not in his best interests, however painful that is to accept, They may feel guilty and want to blame someone else but it is no reason to describe it as state authorised murder. And who is paying for all these court cases? The legal bill must be horrendous.

The enquiry will be the way to determine that.
Anything else is speculation.
Very distasteful.
All any of us need to know is that a 12 year old boy has died.
His,mothers life is none of our business.

Lucky girl, I understand your views on the involvement if the media in these kind of situations. However, look at the positives that have resulted, I’m thinking Hillsborough, Steven Lawrence. We need a free press.
I don’t see Archie’s tragedy as a miscarriage if justice. His parents were supported by our family court system in challenging the medical view. Archie’s best interests were separately represented in those proceedings. Nothing is perfect but our system is thorough and fair imo.
Of course the grief his mother feels is overwhelming. She’d be well advised to seek out wiser, calmer, support systems.
Given her use of the media so far, that seems unlijely

I’m perfectly certain that the medics involved in this case behaved entirely properly, and most certainly in the child’s best interests.

I’m sure you’re right JenniferEccles. I’m repeating myself but it is important to remember that Archie was legally represented, as were his parents and the hospital

Charlie Gard’s parents have done a lot of important work with medics, ethicists and legal experts to look at ways to prevent such awful conflicts between medics and parents in the future. Perhaps Hollie Dance might have something to contribute to this, to find a channel for her grief which is more positive.

We may not feel her demands for an investigation are reasonable but I think they are entirely understandable. She is, as others who understand all too well have said, maddened by grief. She deserves compassion and needs help. I find the judgmental attitudes of some on social media and elsewhere sickening.

My son who is a barrister told me that barristers often work for free in these types of cases. I’m not saying that this has happened here, just that it often does and may have happened in this case.

Nightowl, I am sorry you think this way, for my part I just can’t understand how this woman can blame the medics and use the language she did to describe her sons death. This mother has been thinking of herself and how she feels, not poor Archies future life should he have recovered. She just needs to blame someone

I think we have no right to judge Barmeyoldbat. She is living a nightmare, out of her mind with grief. I don’t think we have any right to judge who or what she was thinking of. I agree it must have been hard for the medical team, but that doesn’t compare to what she is going through.

There are questions to be asked, not about Archie’s case in particular, but about how these tragic situations might be resolved in a less contentious way. That is what Charlie Gard’s parents have been working towards and there is hope that they are close to achieving positive changes in the law to help parents in the future. That can only be for the good of all involved, especially the children.

The NHS is under so much pressure with reduced staff levels and increased work load post pandemic. This seems to be affecting people's perception and trust of medics. There are endless stories in the press of long ambulance waits outside hospitals,millions in waiting lists for treatment and reports of misdiagnosis of serious illnesses. This all seems to be fuelling public anxiety and mistrust of doctors.
Archies case is the complete breakdown of communication and trust from a distraught mother to the medical profession. I think there will be more cases like this as technological advances can keep the heart beating by life support even though the brain is dead. There should be an inquiry to help reassure the general public that the medical profession were caring for the child's welfare. Lots of people do not have any understanding of the complexities of these cases and conspiracy theories are always there on the internet.

Jaffacake2

The NHS is under so much pressure with reduced staff levels and increased work load post pandemic. This seems to be affecting people's perception and trust of medics. There are endless stories in the press of long ambulance waits outside hospitals,millions in waiting lists for treatment and reports of misdiagnosis of serious illnesses. This all seems to be fuelling public anxiety and mistrust of doctors.
Archies case is the complete breakdown of communication and trust from a distraught mother to the medical profession. I think there will be more cases like this as technological advances can keep the heart beating by life support even though the brain is dead. There should be an inquiry to help reassure the general public that the medical profession were caring for the child's welfare. Lots of people do not have any understanding of the complexities of these cases and conspiracy theories are always there on the internet.

The relatives of a patient on ITU would not see any of the impacts of the stress the NHS is under though Jaffacake2, it’s a calm, controlled environment, with highly skilled and focussed staff, who look after patients on life support day in day out, and are very used to dealing with distraught families. The challenge with this case is very unlikely to be down to inadequate communication by the senior clinical staff.

Caslon you are right, the staff I dealt with during the last six weeks of my daughters life couldn’t have been better, I was kept informed the whole time and they discussed treatments options etc. it was all very calm, quiet but busy and the staff were certainly focussed. I don’t believe the public have lost trust in the NHS but have lost trust in actually getting any treatment but once treatment is forthcoming then most people are satisfied. This mother was flipping lucky to have the treatment and care for her son, that they couldn’t give him the outcome she wanted wasn’t down to their lack of treatment

What changes do you think there might be in the law, nightowl?

It hard to know how such cases can be less contentious with doctors saying death has occurred and parents saying no it hasn’t. Neither of them are going to change their opinion whatever happens.

In Archies case medical opinion was sought from a number of doctors not employed by the hospital who all agreed with the diagnosis, a Guardian was appointed to ensure that his case was argued and an independent court process weighed all the evidence from both parties.

What more could be done?

nightowl

We may not feel her demands for an investigation are reasonable but I think they are entirely understandable. She is, as others who understand all too well have said, maddened by grief. She deserves compassion and needs help. I find the judgmental attitudes of some on social media and elsewhere sickening.

Some of the judgmental comments made about her are indeed unnecessarily harsh and judgmental. It seems to be the nature of social media.

However, she has not, herself, held back in making her own severe and relentless criticism of the very people who've ben caring for her son under what must be very difficult circumstances - especially now that the media spotlight is on them. I think this has provoked something of a backlash against her, but the intemperate language some have used to criticise her is dire. She has suffered what everyone now recognises as a parent's worst nightmare and the fact she found him with a ligature around his neck is almost too horrific to imagine.

She now wants an investigation and an enquiry - and maybe that's a good idea because it would at least give the hospital/ medical profession an opportunity to defend itself / themselves - for the moment, they can say nothing. My concern is, if the enquiry concluded that Barts had in fact acted in Archie's best interests - would she accept that? And if she didn't, where would she go from there?

Along with those who've 'crawled out of the woodwork' to make some very spiteful comments about her are those who've also made some pretty nasty observations about the medical profession and, indeed, the judiciary. One such individual declared that the judge presiding over the court hearing should be "charged with murder", and received lots of "likes" and verbal 'pats on the back' for her comment. Anyone attempting a rational debate or who had the temerity to question these near-hysterical posters - however politely - was met with a barrage of insults or the accusation that they were "heartless" and such forth.

Nothing good has come of this very high-profile case so far, except that Archie's poor, fragile, lifeless body is no longer lying in a hospital bed where even moving him slightly to prevent bed sores developing was fraught with complications because of the slow but continuous deterioration of his organs - his veins, his intestines...

What this tragic woman needs now is to be supported and surrounded by those that really care for her who will help her plan her beloved son's funeral, who will be there for her when she's overwhelmed and - above all - hold her best interests in their heart. Not the media virtually camping outside the hospital to get the latest 'exclusive' scoop, nor the campaign group in the guise of 'supporting' her but who are also promoting their own agenda through her... but people who will help her to come to terms with life without Archie.

Iam - my concern with the media is that fact that they do not act with integrity when faced with someone (anyone) courting media attention. They just lap this stuff up with a gleam in their eye. They can choose not to report some things because to do so would either be unethical or not in the best interests of the people concerned. Sadly they do not do that.

A free press is vital - but that places responsibilities on them to behave with integrity where no public interest is served by reporting.

Having worked on a magazine, I know how editors might have reacted to being approached by Archie's Mum (if indeed that is what happened) - they would not have said "Hold on, this is a very sad situation, will it help this family if we report this?" - they would have grabbed their "scoop" with open arms.

Not the media virtually camping outside the hospital to get the latest 'exclusive' scoop, nor the campaign group in the guise of 'supporting' her but who are also promoting their own agenda through her... but people who will help her to come to terms with life without Archie

We must remember though Dickens, that it was the mother who wanted the media present. She was constantly giving interviews to numerous news outlets. Same on social media. I would imagine she'll still be wanting them to give her a voice if she gets the go ahead for an inquiry.

I posted this article upthread, Very interesting on how the media should report on these cases.

www.healthnewsreview.org/2016/08/if-you-are-brain-dead-you-cannot-also-be-kept-alive-on-life-support-an-important-nuance-and-the-news-medias-failure-in-emotionally-charged/

Properly define brain death. A brain dead person is dead, though their organs may be kept alive.
Define the necessary terms properly and don’t say “life support” when you mean “organ support.”
A persistent vegetative state is not the same as brain dead.
Don’t be scared of challenging the words of family members or even quoted experts who confuse the issues. Saying that “we are keeping her on life support” when she is already brain dead will continue to confuse the public.