Archie Battersbee

The comments regarding this sad case have been thoughtfully put and I think none of us know how we would cope in a similar situation. My only comment for Holly Dance is "be careful for what you wish for"

Jaffacake2

I wasn't criticising the ITU staff communication, I was saying there was a breakdown of communication and trust from the mother to the medics. I am sure that the staff would have been completely open when discussing Archies prognosis with the mum but she was not in a mental state to deal with the realty of the situation.
What I was trying to suggest was that there is a degree of mistrust from the public when dealing with health concerns with doctors. People who write on Gransnet all appear to be knowledgeable, articulate and insightful. But this isn't true of everyone in the country. People often become angry when they don't understand a situation and fearful if they don't feel they are having the right medical treatments.
During the pandemic I was saying to be friend that I would not want to be ventilated in one of the Nightingale hospitals as I didn't think there would be enough trained nurses to safely care for me. My friend said that I would be able to read the paper still and look on the kindle. She had no idea that you would need to be sedated to be ventilated. I was shocked as she is a very intelligent person but it was completely out of her remit.
So fuelled by anxiety and mistrust with no knowledge of life support,brain death, what does the general population understand of Archies case ? Put in conspiracy theories from the internet and sensationalism from the press and it is a more of confusion for people.

this is a very good and thoughtful message.

I did ask earlier nightowl what changes you would like to see in the law.

Obviously you would not involve the medical staff or the courts so do you think parents wishes for their child should be the deciding factor?

Who would be able to challenge the parents decision or would there be no avenues for challenge?

Would we support all parents even if the parents belief would lead to the death of a child when medics are confident that the child could be saved?

I would really like to hear what changes are being proposed and your thoughts on them. How you see them as being better than those safeguards that are in place.

I agree.
As I have said, I have also seen comments from health professionals who also agree; better an enquiry that absolved them than baseless blame.

No professional is immune to criticism. I think Archie’s mum is railing more against a system which overrides parents’ wishes when there are no concerns about deliberate harm. I’m sure medical staff would appreciate a better system so they were not the ones making decisions, and preferably one which did not need to involve the courts. There are reasons why the NHS employ medical ethicists; the decisions that need to be made in these complex cases are not simple, medical advances are amazing but in some ways have also raised many more questions than answers.

No one is compelled to post on this thread, nor to read it. But some of us want to see where this is going because a minor but nasty hornet’ nest has been stirred up against both the NHS in general, and the judiciary. I, for one, find this quite worrying.

I find it quite worrying too. Especially because I have a son who is a barrister and a daughter who is a doctor. Unfortunately sometimes malicious claims are made against people who practice both of these professions, and indeed those who practice other professions, and at other times claims are made that are based on ignorance. Archie’s mother is obviously distraught but blaming professionals who have cared for Archie will not help to assuage her distress.

I’ve just seen a picture on Facebook of Archie with his mother on one side, the local MP on the other with Union Jacks and a picture of the Queen ( it was taken at Jubilee time). I can’t imagine that it’s fake news. It’s very unsavoury.

Juliet27 - Thank you for the link. I have just finished reading it and it was a hard read but think that it sheds a lot of light on the circumstances of Archie's death. I worked in the Scottish Court system and am not sure how the English system works but it seems very clear from this Judgement that the right decisions were made by the medical specialists.

nightowl

Poor Hollie Dance. She didn’t behave as we expected someone in her position to behave. No dignity, criticising medical staff, fighting against all hope for her son to be kept on machines. What a pity she didn’t know her place. Then she might have had more sympathy.

The media tends to always focus on the Mother not behaving as she should too. Look at Kate McCann

We may as well be graphic.
It has been repeated often enough that Archie was dead; ergo he would have been totally unaware of any of those things.

In the long run it’s cruel to the family. It’s cruel to the nursing staff. And it’s cruel to someone else who needs that bed and has a chance of surviving.

MissAdventure

In what way?
If they are already dead, how can it be cruel?

I don't know how to say this without being graphic. Do you have any idea what state this boy's body was in? Are you aware that he had chronic diarrhoea? Secretions? Sores? Did you know that just turning him to alleviate bedsores causes upset? Do you understand that once a body starts to fail and necrotize there are extremely distressing responses?

Do you honestly think that the NHS would refuse permission for him to be moved had it been possible? Of course not.

This was the kindest safest way for Archie and family.

And with that I'm out of the thread as well.

Actually on reading through the judgment in the link up page the Judge remarked that they behaved with dignity during the hearings, especially brought to notice was the girl friend of Archie’s brother who has been acting as spokes person for the family.
It is such a pity they were so misguided… in my opinion… by people with their own agenda.

In what way?
If they are already dead, how can it be cruel?

nightowl

Poor Hollie Dance. She didn’t behave as we expected someone in her position to behave. No dignity, criticising medical staff, fighting against all hope for her son to be kept on machines. What a pity she didn’t know her place. Then she might have had more sympathy.

You might think that but the sad fact is Hollie didn't know, wouldn't understand that keeping a deceased person on life support is utterly cruel.

25Avalon

Or that she couldn't Juliet.

Yes maybe….as you’d pointed out earlier Perhaps the hospital’s treatment of the family could have been better but they were dealing with someone who could not and would not accept their son was beyond hope.

Or that she couldn't Juliet.

What a pity she didn’t know her place.

It seems more that she didn’t want to try to understand the difficulties involved.

lemsip

*Time to stop posting on here, it is over!*

As the accusations towards the medical profession - and indeed the judiciary - emanating from this case have wider implications for the public generally (and particularly for those of us who have relatives working in that profession), I don't see why we should stop posting.

It is over for young Archie, thank goodness, but not for his mother who, as you probably know, is demanding a public inquiry and investigation.

No one is compelled to post on this thread, nor to read it. But some of us want to see where this is going because a minor but nasty hornet's nest has been stirred up against both the NHS in general, and the judiciary. I, for one, find this quite worrying.

Poor Hollie Dance. She didn’t behave as we expected someone in her position to behave. No dignity, criticising medical staff, fighting against all hope for her son to be kept on machines. What a pity she didn’t know her place. Then she might have had more sympathy.

The family refused an MRI scan that would have proved this and the hospital had to take legal action to carry it out. Now the family say it was not Archie’s that was submitted.

The following, as submitted elsewhere on here, gives so much insight and understanding to all the problems involved.

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Archie-Batteresbee-judgment-2-1.pdf

Hollie isn’t going to let it go. Idk if she will get an enquiry but I expect there will be an inquest which will revolve on how Archie came to put a ligature round his neck rather than the medical treatment which has been legally endorsed all the way.

Jaffacake2 has a point about people not understanding medical matters. I was reading an interesting article, can’t remember where, about the difference between a vegetative state coma and brain stem death. I think Hollie and her family have confused the two but the medical staff didn’t. In a vegetative coma there is still a good chance of eventually regaining consciousness. When the brain stem cells have died there is no such chance. The family refused an MRI scan that would have proved this and the hospital had to take legal action to carry it out. Now the family say it was not Archie’s that was submitted.

With the body being kept going with medical mechanical intervention there can be twitching of muscles. It does not mean the brain is alive which Hollie mistakenly thought it was. I must admit until I read this article I didn’t fully realise myself.

Another angle - Archie was taking up a bed, equipment, and staff all to keep his body functioning with no hope of recovery. There could be someone else out there who needed that who could be saved. Once it was assessed Archie could not be saved the hospital had to think of that. Intensive care beds are in short supply. Perhaps the hospital’s treatment of the family could have been better but they were dealing with someone who could not and would not accept their son was beyond hope.

Yes, that’s right I am out

That is true but that shouldn’t mean we have to perpetuate it and give the family the publicity they crave.
As lemsip said, it is over as far as the general public is concerned, let it go.

That isn’t the view of Hollie Dance, lemsip
She is calling for an investigation and inquiry into her son’s death.
That’s what people are discussing now.
www.itv.com/news/anglia/2022-08-07/archie-battersbees-family-call-for-investigation-following-his-death