Transgender Awareness week

Just want to add that you are happy to assume that it does breech UN convention with nothing to substantiate this.

Yes, that's what I'm saying and you don't know if the school is in breech of the UN convention on children's rights either.

We don't know if the school's approach with the parents is with the knowledge and consent of the child.

Smileless2012

You're not answering my question though Glorianny. Your response is all about 'ifs' and neither you or I know if they applicable in this particular case.

So now what you are saying is you don't know if it breeches the UN convention on children's rights but you are happy to assume it doesn't.
I'd draw your attention to the phrase

^This must be done in a
way that recognises the child’s increasing
capacity to make their own choices^

Can you explain how choosing to misgender the child to her parents recognises the child's decision about her chosen pronoun?

they're not they

You're not answering my question though Glorianny. Your response is all about 'ifs' and neither you or I know if they applicable in this particular case.

GagaJo it's good to see examples of acceptance.

Smileless2012

^So this really isn't a trans issue it is a human rights one^ It's both isn't it, and there's been nothing to suggest that this child's human rights are being disrespected. So, why are suggesting that this child's human rights are being disrespected and what are you basing that on?

If the staff are discussing the child with the parents without her being present and using "he" they are
1. Not including her in any discussions about her life as she should be.
2. Not respecting her right to use the pronoun she prefers, so not respecting her decisions.

If they are including her in the discussions and using "he" they are still not respecting her right to views and decisions about her pronoun. (Presumably it would also involve switching pronouns as they spoke to each person which is difficult)

A lovely example at the Spanish school I used to work at. Openly trans student. All the other students knew, long before staff, and were completely accepting.

School and parents found out at about the same time. School was worried parents would be hostile, because they were quite devoutly Catholic. But no! The family were completely supportive. It was incredible to see how the child grew and blossomed with all the acceptance. It was a lovely thing to witness.

So this really isn't a trans issue it is a human rights one It's both isn't it, and there's been nothing to suggest that this child's human rights are being disrespected. So, why are suggesting that this child's human rights are being disrespected and what are you basing that on?

Glorianny

Smileless2012

There's nothing to suggest that this particular child's rights are being disrespected Glorianny.

You don't know what conversations have been had to handle a situation when the child and parents are all present. It's a great pity that the parents are hostile as their child will not be unaware of this.

As Wyllow posted we need positive examples. This is one so I don't understand why you appear to be making it into a negative by suggesting this particular child's rights are being disrespected.

So which pronoun do you think staff use when speaking to the child and the parents together Smileless2012 ?
If the child says she wants "she' should that be ignored?

Incidentally the UN say any child should be included in any discussion about them once they have the ability to do so. So this really isn't a trans issue it is a human rights one.
article 5 ^(parental guidance and a
child’s evolving capacities)^
^Governments must respect the rights and
responsibilities of parents and carers to
provide guidance and direction to their
child as they grow up, so that they fully
enjoy their rights. This must be done in a
way that recognises the child’s increasing
capacity to make their own choices^

grannydarkhair - I agree. There are so many groups who deserve sympathy and understanding and I'm tired of constantly hearing about trans. As someone said they are in such a minority so does it warrant so much attention.

I've no idea what's been discussed and what's been decided upon Glorianny by all concerned and neither do you. So why assume that the parents wishes will be put above those of their child? Why try and put a negative spin on a positive example?

Smileless2012

There's nothing to suggest that this particular child's rights are being disrespected Glorianny.

You don't know what conversations have been had to handle a situation when the child and parents are all present. It's a great pity that the parents are hostile as their child will not be unaware of this.

As Wyllow posted we need positive examples. This is one so I don't understand why you appear to be making it into a negative by suggesting this particular child's rights are being disrespected.

So which pronoun do you think staff use when speaking to the child and the parents together Smileless2012 ?
If the child says she wants "she' should that be ignored?

There's nothing to suggest that this particular child's rights are being disrespected Glorianny.

You don't know what conversations have been had to handle a situation when the child and parents are all present. It's a great pity that the parents are hostile as their child will not be unaware of this.

As Wyllow posted we need positive examples. This is one so I don't understand why you appear to be making it into a negative by suggesting this particular child's rights are being disrespected.

Wyllow3

My step niece is head of a big school in a large city in the SW. I had a long chat with her on the issues as it was coming up for discussion at a meeting I was going to.
I have to start by saying that Molly that is very rare (and very silly!)

*The main point she made straightaway was that most of "da kidz" know far more about it than us oldies or most of their parents. And accept that gender fluidity is part of their lives as they are now. Not all do of course, but most.

And are not troubled about it, except for the few who would be troubled about it but now have the chance for their inner?? to have a space for discussion when previously it wasn't there.

The school takes the attitude that they make clear that anyone needing to talk has the chance. Of course, some students take the mick and mess around with putting this or that pronoun on something coming their way.

they have an interesting conundrum and I'll tell you how they deal with it as I think its very instructive.

There is a young person there who is one of the few who knew from as early as they can remember that they didn't fit into their biological gender identity.

Certainly no one in the family pushed it on them, as they are hostile.

So the school has been pragmatic and at school X is "she and her" and uses her chosen female name, and her fellow students accept it - but when the school talks to the parents, they use "he"and her birth given name.

In relationship to that minority who seek to cause distress and trouble I repeat, as I have throughout this discussion, I have no time for it. However the constant "shock horror stories" which are constantly paraded out do in fact as far as I'm concerned do ultimately become part of transphobia because they do not give a balanced view.

We need to "hear", imo, some of the early postings where there are loved family trans people and imagine the effect of the "worst examples" being the only representation of trans life.

I agree about the "shock horror stories" Wyllow3 but I'm afraid as far as I am concerned the school has placed the parents in an untenable position. What happens when the young person is present with the parents? As far as I was concerned once my children reached a certain age anything a member of staff wanted to say about them had to be said in front of them. I would accept that there might be a discussion with me first but then I expected that discussion to be opened up and the young person included. In fact if the school is not doing this they may be in contravention of the UN Convention of Children rights which says that young people should be included in any decisions about their lives as their ability to do so increases. Most local councils now follow this convention in dealing with children. www.unicef.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/UNCRC_summary-1_1.pdf
So it may sound fine in theory but it is disrespecting the child's rights

It's good to know that there is such a positive and accepting attitude Fanny.

My ex-Secondary school is exactly the same, and it is extremely Catholic.

Incidently, it also has a very openly gay man as Deputy Head.
He is married and their adopted son is a pupil at the school.

There is indeed a very positive attitude in many of our schools

An uplifting post Wyllow and a good example of how this issue can be handled in a way that is understanding and supportive to both the student in this case, and the parents.

The school is to be commended.

I agree Wyllow, most teenagers are very matter of fact about trans students in their schools / classes. Many support trans students and the majority of others see it as a non issue which isn't focused on.

I've certainly never heard it thrown around as an insult, in the way 'gay' used to be.

W3
^ I have to start by saying that Molly that is very rare (and very silly)^
Glad you agree with me.
Had I not been on the receiving end of the reporting, I wouldn’t have believed it either.

My step niece is head of a big school in a large city in the SW. I had a long chat with her on the issues as it was coming up for discussion at a meeting I was going to.
I have to start by saying that Molly that is very rare (and very silly!)

*The main point she made straightaway was that most of "da kidz" know far more about it than us oldies or most of their parents. And accept that gender fluidity is part of their lives as they are now. Not all do of course, but most.

And are not troubled about it, except for the few who would be troubled about it but now have the chance for their inner?? to have a space for discussion when previously it wasn't there.

The school takes the attitude that they make clear that anyone needing to talk has the chance. Of course, some students take the mick and mess around with putting this or that pronoun on something coming their way.

they have an interesting conundrum and I'll tell you how they deal with it as I think its very instructive.

There is a young person there who is one of the few who knew from as early as they can remember that they didn't fit into their biological gender identity.

Certainly no one in the family pushed it on them, as they are hostile.

So the school has been pragmatic and at school X is "she and her" and uses her chosen female name, and her fellow students accept it - but when the school talks to the parents, they use "he"and her birth given name.

In relationship to that minority who seek to cause distress and trouble I repeat, as I have throughout this discussion, I have no time for it. However the constant "shock horror stories" which are constantly paraded out do in fact as far as I'm concerned do ultimately become part of transphobia because they do not give a balanced view.

We need to "hear", imo, some of the early postings where there are loved family trans people and imagine the effect of the "worst examples" being the only representation of trans life.

Oh Molly That really is awful. And I can very well believe it.
Was it at your school? I would have been fuming

Sorry, that quiz sounds like the c**p the 6th form mentors handed out to Y7 girls (11-12 year olds) until parents reported it to the head and the governors and put a stop to it!

You don’t like make up? You’re probably asexual.
You like to wear different clothes at the weekend? You might be bi.
You prefer hanging out with girls? You’re probably gay.
You hate periods? You’re probably trans.
Unbelievable? I wish it had been!

I’ve just completed another one. This time I’m non-binary (which wasn’t previously an option).
It goes on to tell me that I ‘need to talk to a Gender Therapist’.

Think I'll give that a miss Fanny.