Elderly who fall at home unlikely to get an ambulance during strikes.

It must be difficult LtEve and yes, the time wasters are a problem. One girl was telling us her problems as we sat for so long in A&E, she'd been back and forth for 3 days and was clearly struggling with MH problems.
But at the other end is the fact that people are fit enough to leave hospital but need convalescence or care at home.

I wish they would open some of the little local hospitals which are now standing empty (well, our local one is). Then bed blockers could go there.

travelsafar

I keep reading about bed blocking being the cause of the issues for ambulance delays at point of entry to A&E due to lack of carers in the community. Surely everyone being discharged doesn't require a package of care when going home. They have partners, family and friends,are maybe young and relatively able to take care of themselves. It's not just elderly people that use hospital beds!!!!

That is true.
But many elderly people need the kind of care that has to be administered 3 / 4 times a day. People have jobs, they cannot ask for leave of absence on that basis. And families don't all live close together anymore - remember "on your bike" to find a job?
Sure, if it means popping in to make sure an elderly relative is OK in the evening, and you don't live 50+ miles away... and I'm sure that is what families do.
But some patients, who are well enough to be at home also need a period of recuperation before they can be left to get on with it. There are no more cottage hospitals, no vacancies in residential homes, too few carers for the number of people needing them.
This problem has been brewing for years and the consequences are well-known to government(s). They've done little about it and now it's reached crisis point.
I'm sure families do step up to the plate, when they are able to. But we don't live the way we used to - just streets apart from other family members. People take jobs where the jobs are... Grans on here live hundreds of miles away from their offspring, they've talked about it, talked about moving closer.
We need a properly funded social / medical care system for the times we live in now. But a government wedded to the small-state market economy is not going to provide that - hence 'care in the community'... on the cheap. And that's why we are where we are.

I think the NHS staff do get ‘properly paid’ Iam64. They know the rates for the work when they join. The strikes aren’t about that per se. It’s all about inflation busting pay rises. I don’t think the public will support this over time. Workers in the private sector can only dream about what the unions of public sector workers are demanding.

I think the bandwagon is being jumped on. To bring the government down at the next election. It might well work. Sunak seems to have gone missing in (in)action and Hunt is taxing us all until the pips squeak. I know we got 10% pay rise on our SPs but the personal allowance didn’t go up so we will all be giving some of that back to the Treasury.

And as reported in some newspapers, it seems crass to ask the Army in to take up the slack, covering for. NHS and Border Force officials when their own pay scales are lower.

A perfect storm is coming.

Urmstongran

I think the NHS staff do get ‘properly paid’ Iam64. They know the rates for the work when they join. The strikes aren’t about that per se. It’s all about inflation busting pay rises. I don’t think the public will support this over time. Workers in the private sector can only dream about what the unions of public sector workers are demanding.

I think the bandwagon is being jumped on. To bring the government down at the next election. It might well work. Sunak seems to have gone missing in (in)action and Hunt is taxing us all until the pips squeak. I know we got 10% pay rise on our SPs but the personal allowance didn’t go up so we will all be giving some of that back to the Treasury.

And as reported in some newspapers, it seems crass to ask the Army in to take up the slack, covering for. NHS and Border Force officials when their own pay scales are lower.

A perfect storm is coming.

Don't count your chickens. That 10% payrise may not happen if Sunak goes the way of other PMs.
I will believe it when it happens
Far too many u turns with this government to take anything for granted

Urmstongran

I think the NHS staff do get ‘properly paid’ Iam64. They know the rates for the work when they join. The strikes aren’t about that per se. It’s all about inflation busting pay rises. I don’t think the public will support this over time. Workers in the private sector can only dream about what the unions of public sector workers are demanding.

I think the bandwagon is being jumped on. To bring the government down at the next election. It might well work. Sunak seems to have gone missing in (in)action and Hunt is taxing us all until the pips squeak. I know we got 10% pay rise on our SPs but the personal allowance didn’t go up so we will all be giving some of that back to the Treasury.

And as reported in some newspapers, it seems crass to ask the Army in to take up the slack, covering for. NHS and Border Force officials when their own pay scales are lower.

A perfect storm is coming.

You’re completely wrong about private sector pay rises, I’m not sure where you picked that up from.

Regular pay growth in the public sector was 2.2% in July to September 2022, while in the private sector it was 6.6%. This is both the largest private sector pay growth and the largest gap between public and private pay growth on record (since January 2000), excluding the height of the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic.23 Nov 2022
www.ons.gov.uk › 2022-11-23

www.ft.com/content/d819ba3b-d886-42dd-9be9-511134fc69d2

I think the NHS staff do get ‘properly paid’ Iam64. They know the rates for the work when they join.

I don't know what rates of pay are in the NHS, but your reasoning is all wrong here Urmstongran.

Although they "knew the rates when they join", they join with an understanding of the standard of living those rates will give them. But over time, if the pay does not keep up with inflation, then the value of their salaries is eroded and so their standard of living is eroded. Perhaps to the extent of not being able to put the heating on or feed their children every day.

Urms suggest you stop supporting the Tories, in fact if I had my way anyone who voted Tory and helped run down the nhs wouldnt get treated.

And don't get me started on people who pretend they have chest pain/thunderclap headaches and have googled enough to describe it perfectly so they get that high priority ambulance, they then admit to the crew that they don't have chest pain/headaches they just wanted their minor issue dealt with quickly.

Thank you for all the hard work you and your colleagues in the Ambulance service provide LtEve. I just want to say I am sorry for my comment that I too wondered what if a patient were to say they had chest pains or a headache. (Probably stems from my being a fit healthy early 60s person whose mind, if I suffered an out of the blue fall and couldn't get up, would jump to those two conclusions). But surely people don't Google symptoms and reel them off just to jump the queue, that's inexcusable.
Once again, apologies from me.

Just a few months ago my DH was in school when a decision was made to make a 999 call for a child with a suspected anaphalactic shock. The first responder was on the scene in minutes and the ambulance shortly afterwards. No chances taken.

So, govt wasted £37bn on an app, £4.5bn loans written off, PPE fiasco, but it’s the nurses’ and ambulance drivers’ fault that we’re in such a mess. Right-o.

Barmeyoldbat

Urms suggest you stop supporting the Tories, in fact if I had my way anyone who voted Tory and helped run down the nhs wouldnt get treated.

... golly gosh, that's a bit OTT isn't it?

And funnily enough, I doubt the nurses would want to be part of such a 'scheme'.

I wish people would stop voting Tory - but denying treatment on the basis of your political outlook is definitely a step too far. IMO.

My 86-year-old next door neighbour fell last week. His wife called us to ask if we could help lift him up. We tried but he was in too much pain. We called an ambulance and his daughter a local GP. She came and sat with him for 6 hours until an ambulance eventually arrived at 3.00am.

He had broken his ‘hip’ and had surgery next morning.

The system is very broken.

Dickens, ok treat them but let them wait. It just makes me so angry.

Urmstongran

So, elderly people who fall won't get an ambulance, because they are on strike, they probably won't have family around because the trains are on stike, and even if they SOMEHOW manage to drag themselves to a hospital, they will get no care because the nurses are, oh yeah, on strike.

We are all struggling in this cost of living crisis and medical services at least used to be considered a vocation, not a J-O-B.

Get back to work and knuckle down, just like the rest of those who don't have rabble rousing unions have to do, to survive during this current mess.

Calm down Urms, you don't want to have a heart attack, there may not be an ambulance. Honestly, 'terminology like 'rabble rousing unions' is straight out of the 1970s and 80s Daily Mail. If we all want to survive what this bloody government are doing to this country, we must support the strikers, especially those who were guiilible enough to out on their doorstep clapping the same people not so long ago.

The government should take this back ‘in house’. It costs the taxpayer a bluddy fortune and goodness only knows what benefits it brings

Oh yes, because they have such a great record of handling things don't they? You know as well as I do that a contract would go to a crony, or a company such s G4S or Crapita who are masters of exploitation and underpaying staff. Any other great ideas?

Barmeyoldbat

Urms suggest you stop supporting the Tories, in fact if I had my way anyone who voted Tory and helped run down the nhs wouldnt get treated.

People who believe the rubbish shovelled out will not stop believing until they are dragged through the gate to whatever punishment the far-right has decided is applicable to those they have targeted ... and maybe not even then.

growstuff

It was a serious question. I have never been in an A & E where loads have people have come in shouting what's wrong with them. Most people come in, go to reception and then go and sit quietly, resigned to waiting. I don't think I've ever known what was wrong with anybody else.

I wondered how long it would take for the allegations that it is the drunks/drug addicts/stupid young people/idiots with broken fingernails claims to pop up. I am rather heartened that it has taken until page 4 of this thread, maybe reality is hitting more of us. I can tell you, when I went to casualty on Tuesday night with DH who had serious breathing problems, NOT ONE of the dozen or so people patiently queueing outside to even get into the pre-reception area, some with children wrapped up in blankets.....none of them were either drunk or loudly discussing their ailments with others. They were all patiently and with resignation politely waiting to be seen.

HousePlantQueen

growstuff

It was a serious question. I have never been in an A & E where loads have people have come in shouting what's wrong with them. Most people come in, go to reception and then go and sit quietly, resigned to waiting. I don't think I've ever known what was wrong with anybody else.

I wondered how long it would take for the allegations that it is the drunks/drug addicts/stupid young people/idiots with broken fingernails claims to pop up. I am rather heartened that it has taken until page 4 of this thread, maybe reality is hitting more of us. I can tell you, when I went to casualty on Tuesday night with DH who had serious breathing problems, NOT ONE of the dozen or so people patiently queueing outside to even get into the pre-reception area, some with children wrapped up in blankets.....none of them were either drunk or loudly discussing their ailments with others. They were all patiently and with resignation politely waiting to be seen.

Perhaps it's just in Wales, they can make new best friends anywhere 😀

Callistemon21

growstuff

It was a serious question. I have never been in an A & E where loads have people have come in shouting what's wrong with them. Most people come in, go to reception and then go and sit quietly, resigned to waiting. I don't think I've ever known what was wrong with anybody else.

Some people who were quite agitated were in A&E when we were there recently. They did go again and again to complain very vociferously to whoever would listen.
It was so overcrowded that anyone near reception could overhear what was being said, especially as people were repeatedly asked to speak up.

Others told other patients exactly what was wrong with them, how long they'd been waiting etc.

I would hazard a guess that you have never been in an A & E recently, growstuff.

You are correct. The last time I went for myself was about five years ago, when I was taken by ambulance after being found unconscious. Before that, I had a number of visits resulting from my children's various accidents.

So what's happened in the intervening five years?

So what's happened in the intervening five years?

It's hell.
The chairs are metal and uncomfortable, there's standing room only, so people start chatting about the waiting time, how hungry they are (they did come round with sandwiches for patients only), how hard-pressed the poor staff are, are you ok there sitting on the floor?, is there anything in the vending machine apart from crisps or chocolate bars, let me help you with the coffee vending machine, hope I'm not still here tomorrow night, do you come here often?

I've just been told today that more medical staff are leaving our local hospitals.

Tread carefully, move loose rugs, don't wear sloppy slippers.

Callistemon21

^So what's happened in the intervening five years^?

It's hell.
The chairs are metal and uncomfortable, there's standing room only, so people start chatting about the waiting time, how hungry they are (they did come round with sandwiches for patients only), how hard-pressed the poor staff are, are you ok there sitting on the floor?, is there anything in the vending machine apart from crisps or chocolate bars, let me help you with the coffee vending machine, hope I'm not still here tomorrow night, do you come here often?

I was in an A&E in October.

Huge area, three sets of people waiting to be seen. We were there about 3 hours and during that time the person I had taken there got a "full MOT" including X-rays, blood tests, everything they needed.

I'm not saying it's all great everywhere, but it's not terrible everywhere either. It's not hell.

volver

Callistemon21

So what's happened in the intervening five years?

It's hell.
The chairs are metal and uncomfortable, there's standing room only, so people start chatting about the waiting time, how hungry they are (they did come round with sandwiches for patients only), how hard-pressed the poor staff are, are you ok there sitting on the floor?, is there anything in the vending machine apart from crisps or chocolate bars, let me help you with the coffee vending machine, hope I'm not still here tomorrow night, do you come here often?

I was in an A&E in October.

Huge area, three sets of people waiting to be seen. We were there about 3 hours and during that time the person I had taken there got a "full MOT" including X-rays, blood tests, everything they needed.

I'm not saying it's all great everywhere, but it's not terrible everywhere either. It's not hell.

There are so many variables - the time of day, day of the week, staffing of the department on a particular shift, log jamming of assessment beds or inpatients beds, how serious/time consuming the cases ahead of you are, how long patients who are waiting to be examined by another team, eg Orthopaedics, Cardiology etc. are in the department, how long waits for X-rays and pathology are, what your complaint is etc.etc. I think all A&E departments have very busy periods, but they are so dependent on the other services running efficiently to support them, so an appearance of inefficiency is not necessarily or even likely to be down to the staff in A&E themselves, although they pick up all the complaints. Many moons ago I managed A&E, I’m sure it’s not changed other than got even busier.

I'm not saying it's all great everywhere, but it's not terrible everywhere either. It's not hell
I knew you'd disagree! 😂

I also spent a day in a MAU - some people had been there for 3 days, sleeping on the bench seats as they waited for beds. They did get fed.

We were only in A&E for 11 hours, we were lucky. DH got "fast" tracked.

I'm glad it's not the same everywhere.

I'm not saying it's all great everywhere, but it's not terrible everywhere either. It's not hell

If it's ok why does it need improvement? 🤔

Why do we think it's failing?