Unconscious bias

Wyllow3

Yes. Listen to others: if we find we have maybe been racist, then rather than be defensive, embrace the information, and seek to find out more, and try to change. Its a lifetime's journey.

Exactly. We all have a bias. I had to confront a lot about myself when I first got married to a non-white person. And again when I had a child. It was a lot to take on board. But there was no other way than to confront it head on.

Yes. Listen to others: if we find we have maybe been racist, then rather than be defensive, embrace the information, and seek to find out more, and try to change. Its a lifetime's journey.

It's not about condemnation. There's nothing wrong with being white, but it's wrong to assume that everybody else experiences the world in the same way that you do.

Spot on!

that's sad farnorth

Arriving for an Airbnb stay in someone's home, a few years ago, I left my bag at left luggage so that I wouldn't be encumbered while looking for the address in an unfamiliar part of the city.
I found the place, spoke with the lady for a bit & checked it was okay with her to come in at any time, as long as I wasn't noisy.
I then went out again, collected my bag, visited a relative and returned to the home quite late.

The next day, the lady said she'd been so relieved to hear me come in as the absence of luggage had caused her to be afraid I'd been checking her out and had decided not to stay because she was black.

It's quite awful that she must have had past experiences which led her to think that.

When local management of schools (LMS) started IN 1990, the ‘not unconscious’ bias against experienced teachers was the first impact I noticed.
Some schools with limited budgets found it better to employ an NQT or a teacher lower in the pay scale than a teacher with around 10 years experience. The only way for many to get a job at a new school was to go for deputy head.

I think it is absolutely offensive, particularly if there are no other seats! It must be wearing to have to put up with that sort of insult on a daily basis, and there is no excuse for it.

Forsythia

GagaJo

My ex husband (Black) and I were using the park and ride in Cambridge. He said to me, I'll be the last person anyone sits next to. I was young then, and Cambridge is a multicultural place, so I didn't believe him. But he was right. After all other seats were taken, some people stood rather than sit next to a Black man.

No doubt they would all have denied it was due to the colour of her a skin.

I would have sat next to your husband and it wouldn’t have bothered me in the slightest. I’ve sat next to many on the tube in London. You’re just glad of a seat.

Well, me too. But not everyone thinks that way. And it isn't exactly being offensive. But shows bias, none the less.

Sorry - I think it can be an attempt to maintain the status quo

I think it can be, but it can also be a pragmatic approach to preventing resentment and accusations of candidates 'playing the X card' - I don't think it's one size fits all.

I have heard resentful failed applicants saying that women got promoted because 'otherwise she would complain of sexism', or that she must have been having sex with someone on the panel, and that's without a quota in place. Anyway, sex-based quotas are irrelevant now, as all a man has to do is say he's a woman and he'll tick two 'discrimination' boxes.

I think that any employer with more than X employees should have a minimum of Y female employees (at all levels), as well as a locally representative number of people from different racial groups and people with disabilities (again, not necessarily concentrated in lower paid roles). I don't think that quotas for particular roles are necessarily helpful.

welbeck

black women's maternity care is recorded as being less satisfactory than white women's, in the uk.
this is thought to be due to unconscious bias,
at least in part. eg the myth of the strong black woman, whereby reported pain is minimised, intervention delayed, leading to bad outcomes.

That is absolutely terrible.
Even if the myth is believed to be true, in general, it's plain cruelty to disbelieve individual women who say they are in pain.

GagaJo

My ex husband (Black) and I were using the park and ride in Cambridge. He said to me, I'll be the last person anyone sits next to. I was young then, and Cambridge is a multicultural place, so I didn't believe him. But he was right. After all other seats were taken, some people stood rather than sit next to a Black man.

No doubt they would all have denied it was due to the colour of her a skin.

I would have sat next to your husband and it wouldn’t have bothered me in the slightest. I’ve sat next to many on the tube in London. You’re just glad of a seat.

This argument, 'recruit the best person for the job' and an unwillingness to implement positive discrimination is the same argument as the one saying that Lady Hussey's response to the Black charity worker wasn't racially motivated.

It's an attempt to maintain the status quo.

GrannyGravy13

GagaJo

Luckygirl3

I do not think it is about condemning ourselves or others for unconscious bias - clearly if it is unconscious then no blame attaches. But it is about trying to make ourselves aware of this in order to treat others better. That is a conscious task that we can undertake.

Exactly LG13.

And looking at the hierarchy in an organisation and seeing (fictional example) that there are 4 white men at the top, while the workforce is mixed male/female, range of ethnicities and thinking, hmmmm, let's even this up a bit next time there is a management vacancy.

Sorry Gagajo would you be in favour of promoting a female or someone not a white male despite them not being as able or suitable (which is far more important in my opinion especially when the role involves working in a team) just to even up the numbers?

No employer in their right mind would do such a thing, it’s tantamount to business/financial suicide.

It has always got to be the right employee for the role, regardless of gender or ethnicity.

Most of the time there is going to be someone in a minority group capable of the job. Unless you are in such a specialised field the recruitment is confined to a tiny minority group of course. But most employers are not in this position.

So...why did this incident escalate to such an extent with 2 schoolboys!? Could it possibly be that assumptions were being made ...unconscious racism?!! Listening to their Mum, gives an insight that may be of interest to some, in terms of the problems experienced!!

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/08/woman-accuses-police-excessive-force-black-sons-at-south-london-station

www.channel4.com/news/mother-of-teenagers-stopped-by-police-at-south-london-train-station-claims-theyre-traumatised-by-incident

My ex husband (Black) and I were using the park and ride in Cambridge. He said to me, I'll be the last person anyone sits next to. I was young then, and Cambridge is a multicultural place, so I didn't believe him. But he was right. After all other seats were taken, some people stood rather than sit next to a Black man.

No doubt they would all have denied it was due to the colour of her a skin.

Yes, a lot more. Including bias and discrimination. But if you're determined to deny it's existence, no change is possible.

GagaJo

Allsorts

Garajo your comments are your take on things.
If employers need a particular type of person and experience for a job, he is paying the wages, taking the chances with that person,,he should choose whom he thinks will meet with his requirements, a person who will fit in with the team, and as an employer you choose who that is.

So it's OK to keep the boys club going, because 'he' fits in the white, male group?

No. It's wrong. I'm not saying I should have got the job. But picking the least qualified or experienced is wrong. I had no issue with my friend. He's a nice guy. In fact, once he had the job, he and I worked together on it.

But it was blatant discrimination.

Experience and qualifications are not the only thing employers take into account at interview. That gets you the interview on paper for sure but it’s personality that plays a big part. Does the person express themselves well? Are they strident and appear aggressive? Does the employer know this person and their personality? Will they fit into the existing team well without upsetting those already there? There’s much more to it than qualifications and experience.

kircubbin2000

I'm finding it difficult to understand all this talk of unconscious bias and white privilege. Surely if it's unconscious you can't be condemned for it or for being born white.
I'm sure everyone has an unconscious reaction ,positive or negative ,to everyone else. As long as we are polite and treat everyone fairly does it matter what out first unconscious reaction may have been?
By delving into a prejudice and trying not to be racist are we not just emphasising the supposed racism around us ? Positive discrimination has the opposite effect.

It's really not about condemning anybody for being white. It's about encouraging members of a dominant group to stop and think before rushing to judgement on others, because they don't have the same experiences as outsiders.

For example, white people who drive an upmarket car don't attract much attention from the police, but a black man driving an upmarket car will often be stopped on suspicion of car theft or generally being up to no good. If it doesn't happen to you then it's all too easy to slip into a "they must have been up to something to attract suspicion".

Or, if you're a young black man who regularly, when walking down the street on his way to work or college, sees people suddenly finding pressing business on the other side. Imagine what that tells you about yout place in society.

What about the black woman barrister who arrives in court only to be directed by a thoughtless official to the place where the accused go to wait.

It's not about condemnation. There's nothing wrong with being white, but it's wrong to assume that everybody else experiences the world in the same way that you do.

It is difficult. Quotas lead to resentment, and can result in the wrong person getting the job. They can also make things even more difficult for those who are selected, as people say they only got the role because they are female/black or whatever, even when it isn't true..

OTOH, without quotas how do you break the stranglehold of male white middle aged and middle class dominance, so that changes come from within? On a third hand (), it is not the role of individual employers to orchestrate changes in the whole of society - they have other things to do. Large corporations can be compelled to follow selection procedures, but small business can only be expected to comply with broad legal requirements such as equal ops.

I think that we can challenge sexism, racism, classism (another huge source of discrimination is social class) and all forms of prejudice when we see it, and bring our children up to do the same. We can challenge discrimination, but IMO that is less likely to succeed unless it is blatant (eg job ads saying no women need apply), as it is impossible to prove that the best person didn't get the job, and challenge can be counterproductive.

GagaJo

Luckygirl3

I do not think it is about condemning ourselves or others for unconscious bias - clearly if it is unconscious then no blame attaches. But it is about trying to make ourselves aware of this in order to treat others better. That is a conscious task that we can undertake.

Exactly LG13.

And looking at the hierarchy in an organisation and seeing (fictional example) that there are 4 white men at the top, while the workforce is mixed male/female, range of ethnicities and thinking, hmmmm, let's even this up a bit next time there is a management vacancy.

Sorry Gagajo would you be in favour of promoting a female or someone not a white male despite them not being as able or suitable (which is far more important in my opinion especially when the role involves working in a team) just to even up the numbers?

No employer in their right mind would do such a thing, it’s tantamount to business/financial suicide.

It has always got to be the right employee for the role, regardless of gender or ethnicity.

Luckygirl3

I do not think it is about condemning ourselves or others for unconscious bias - clearly if it is unconscious then no blame attaches. But it is about trying to make ourselves aware of this in order to treat others better. That is a conscious task that we can undertake.

Exactly LG13.

And looking at the hierarchy in an organisation and seeing (fictional example) that there are 4 white men at the top, while the workforce is mixed male/female, range of ethnicities and thinking, hmmmm, let's even this up a bit next time there is a management vacancy.

I do not think it is about condemning ourselves or others for unconscious bias - clearly if it is unconscious then no blame attaches. But it is about trying to make ourselves aware of this in order to treat others better. That is a conscious task that we can undertake.

If there aren't positive attempts to even things up, we'll just be stuck in the position of white patriarchy forever. Groups in power want to remain in power. They don't 'give' power away.

chances.