Has anyone watched the 90 minute BBC documentary on Shamima Begum?

Germanshepherdsmum

Have I said it is, in my opinion, ‘a satisfactorily clear-cut result’? No.

And that is exactly why she should be brought back to the UK and dealt with here. It is a very grey area (as said in the summing up) and we should have a justice system that deals with everyone as fairly as possible. Whilst she is in Syria she cannot speak freely without fear of reprisal. It would be a bit like asking a hostage how she was being treated by her captors whilst she was still under their control. If she has willingly taken part in acts of terrorism, then she should be punished if she was in fear for her life so did as she was told then surely that is a completely different matter?

Germanshepherdsmum

Maybe white British citizens are rather less likely to belong to such organisations.
Begum is stateless as a result of having failed to make the necessary application for continuing Bangladeshi citizenship before the age of 21, not as a result of the HS’s actions which have been found to be lawful.

It is not entirely her fault though. She was 15 when she was stripped of her British citizenship. At 15 or any age up to 21 years old, she cannot apply to obtain her parents citizenship by descent in her own right because she is a minor. After 21, she automatically lost her right to obtain citizenship through her parents.

Her parents (more so her father) are the ones that should apply for her before she reached 21.
If her father never apply for her then she never had Bangladeshi citizenship in the first place. I think she was entranged from her father?

Have I said it is, in my opinion, ‘a satisfactorily clear-cut result’? No.

GSM, this, in your opinion, is a satisfactorily clear-cut result, but evidently not for the panel who did “know everything”, and who experienced “great concern and difficulty” in arriving at a decision.

Maybe white British citizens are rather less likely to belong to such organisations.
Begum is stateless as a result of having failed to make the necessary application for continuing Bangladeshi citizenship before the age of 21, not as a result of the HS’s actions which have been found to be lawful.

Can anyone name a White British citizen who has had their citizenship revoked because they were a member of a proscribed terrorist organisation? I thought this was of interest Guardian 21.01.22

"In one case revealed by the Observer this week, a 40-year-old man, referred to only as E3, was stripped of his British citizenship in 2017. He was born in London to parents of Bangladeshi heritage, but had his citizenship removed when he flew to Bangladesh.

He was told he was an “Islamist extremist who had previously sought to travel abroad to participate in terrorism-related activity”. He has never been arrested or questioned in relation to these claims, nor has he been provided with any evidence which substantiates these claims.

His citizenship was reinstated after the Home Office accepted he is stateless as a result of having his British citizenship taken away from him."

A succinct definition GSM 👏

This is not ‘how we treat Muslim women’. It is, however, how we treat members of proscribed terrorist organisations.

I wonder where the next generation of terrorists will be nurtured? The security services obviously missed the recruitment of UK citizens to Isis. Perhaps they'll be unaware of the next cohort, perhaps they will stem from the camps, where the UK has rejected a girl, born, raised, and educated here, an example of how we treat Muslim women.
It's a mistake to think what the security forces know is the biggest threat. It's what they don't know and can't imagine that's the real danger.
UK schoolgirls being groomed and recruited to a Jihad- impossible! (but it wasn't!)

Unfortunately (but quite rightly) in this case, and others involving matters of national security, everyone does not know everything - but the Tribunal did, and came to their decision on that basis.

There are problems inherent in allowing one person (or a team of people) to make such far-reaching decisions that over-rule others, particularly when all the sackings and resignations that have happened since the Tories were elected. We are not left with experienced and competent politicians in charge, and it’s worrying.

I agree that the intelligence officers will know more than we do, and rightly so; which makes my feelings more equivocal, but the usual way of British justice is that everyone knows the reason for someone being found guilty, as well as the specifics of the charges.

My understanding of the judgement was that the appeal was not able to over rule the decision of the secretary of state. Basically, once the Secretary of State had decided that she was a threat to National Security that over ruled every other consideration, which he agreed was finely balanced. I think it was the information given to Tony Blair by the Secret Intelligence Service that led us into the war with Iraq. Since then I've been a bit more sceptical of the accuracy of their reports.

The law was not broken. The Tribunal confirmed that. I place my faith in the Tribunal’s decision and in the actions of the security services.

So this country breaks international law by withdrawing her citizenship, and international standards by refusing to recognise and act, against people trading and child soldier recruitment. Its justification for this, there are security issues you can't know about. Not only is this illegal and immoral, it's short sighted and xenophobic. SB presented the opportunity not only to discover and study recruitment methods, but also to show the real result of muslim extremism for women. We seem happy to dump our home grown terrorists onto countries without the infrastructure to deal with them. So not only do we perpetuate the belief that western culture is unfair and corrupt, we leave figureheads and individuals around whom myths can be spun. Perhaps she is a security threat, but what we are actually saying is we can't, or won't deal with that. That could well have much wider consequences.

As Javid said, if you knew what I know. That’s good enough for me.

It’s blindingly obvious that those at the top have evidence supporting SB not being allowed back in the U.K.

Indeed it must.

Seems Starmer has changed his mind on Begum. He used to think she should be brought back to the UK but now thinks not as he says ‘national security must always come first’.

foxie48

Glorianny

This interesting report warns against taking citizenship from women recruited by ISIS.
giwps.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Human-Trafficking-and-ISISs-Recruitment-of-Women-from-the-West.pdf

Thanks for posting this.

Thank you. Exactly how I feel, for those reasons. Even those who do not agree she was groomed, and a 15 year old child- this should be convincing enough It does NOT make us supporters at all.

foxie, the law is the law and it has been applied, whether you like it or not. I’m not interested in people’s views, only in the proper application of the law. Whether anyone likes the decision of the Tribunal or not, unless and until it i# overturned that is the law.

Glorianny

This interesting report warns against taking citizenship from women recruited by ISIS.
giwps.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Human-Trafficking-and-ISISs-Recruitment-of-Women-from-the-West.pdf

Thanks for posting this.

Germanshepherdsmum You keep talking about "sympathy" whereas I and others are not, we are just taking a different viewpoint. The judge in his summing up talked about "reasonable people" having a different view of her situation. I have a different view to you and clearly the judge recognised that this would be the case. We are having an open discussion and putting our own views across, this is not a straightforward situation and I think we all need to accept that, however well we put our case, we can't always get others to agree with us.

This interesting report warns against taking citizenship from women recruited by ISIS.
giwps.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Human-Trafficking-and-ISISs-Recruitment-of-Women-from-the-West.pdf

You have no access to the full picture, or further evidence either GSM. I, and you, have only the tribunal’s decision to go on, and it was as I outlined above.
If there is any sympathy expressed here, perhaps it is hinted at in the tribunal’s explanation for the decision it reached.

No, Delia, he was addressing the separate grounds of appeal - each of which failed. All the grounds of appeal related to the citizenship issue and each had to be dealt with.