Has anyone watched the 90 minute BBC documentary on Shamima Begum?

She doesn't have Bangladeshi citizenship they have refused to give it to her because she did not activate a claim to it before she was 21.

Firstly she was a child soldier. The recruitment of under 18s and the treatment they should receive after the conflict ends or they are released is set out clearly by the UN.
We are clearly in breech of those rules. childrenandarmedconflict.un.org/six-grave-violations/child-soldiers/

The most important being as far as she is concerned these two States should take all possible measures to prevent such recruitment –including legislation to prohibit and criminalize the recruitment of children under 18 and involve them in hostilities.
States will demobilize anyone under 18 conscripted or used in hostilities and will provide physical, psychological recovery services and help their social reintegration

As for the security argument, perhaps someone can explain to me how anyone with beliefs which include armed and violent actions against the west is less dangerous when housed in camps and countries with less than adequate intelligence services, where they are free to influence and recruit more disaffected young people.

Yes, she’s getting legal aid Forsythia.
She’s not stateless, seadragon. She has Bangladeshi (not Pakistani) citizenship.

I have no compassion for her. She has dual nationality and is considered to be a Bangladeshi as both of her parents come from Bangladesh despite her being born in the UK. I hope she's never allowed to come back to the UK. She's a very dangerous person. Why the BBC, a company we are all funding, is spending so much money on making programmes about her is disgusting to my mind.

BlueBelle

Foxie I agree totally
I think your views are harsh GSM Mary Bell murdered a child but has been given a new life so were the James Bulger murderers
She is our responsibility You don’t know she would radicalise others any more than I know she hopefully wouldn’t

I think she is very regretful of her actions when a child, but unfortunately for her she doesn’t show emotions and has obviously closed herself off, which comes across as hard and unremorseful I think she’s had a horrible life losing all her babies and ending up for years in a refugee camp
She should be reinstated and brought back to her home country not left in limbo land she’s our responsibility and should be dealt with by us not left to another country to sort out she didn’t take on there residency

It looks like we are once more in agreement, Bluebell, but this time with one or two others including foxie48. I've tried to read as many posts here as I can but have not seen this anywhere: “Arbitrary deprivation of nationality”, which means deliberately moving to make a citizen stateless, is prohibited under these instruments. Article 15 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is particularly explicit on this point.16 Jul 2020
The Human Rights Impact Of Making Someone Stateless . Pakistan has denied that Shamima Begum has any claim of citizenship there. I believe we could learn a great deal from Shamima Begum. At least we can monitor her..... Having been through major trauma throughout much of my childhood - though nothing to compare with what Ms Begum has experienced at such a young age - I too am a proficient in the art of dissociation as a survival mechanism.....

The lawyers she has are highly paid individuals who are often involved in very contentious cases over the years. Who is paying for them? Surely not legal aid via our taxes.

Well her lawyer would say that wouldn’t she?! Do you believe everything you hear, regardless of who is saying it and what their agenda is?

No, I have absolutely no compassion for her. You’ve chosen to put a spin on her situation with which I completely disagree.

The actual judgment makes interesting reading and I don't think this is the end of it.

"(The judge) described the case as finely balanced and said that reasonable people might strongly and profoundly disagree with the way in which Ms Begum's case has been determined."

"The outcome that we face is that no British child who has been trafficked outside the UK will be protected by the British state if the Home Secretary invokes national security," Part of statement by her lawyer

Germanshepherdsmum

Quite so, GG.
BlueBelle: Mary Bell and James Bulger’s killers cannot be compared with a much older girl who willingly participated in terrorism and mass murder. She is a dangerous enemy of our State, not a young child who committed one murder, heinous though those murders were.

Or you could view her as a naive girl who was living in what she felt was a restrictive family. This girl was groomed initially by a trusted friend, who told her that what she saw in the newspapers about ISIS was untrue and that her life in Syria would be different and exciting. So with two close friends (peer pressure + support) she followed instructions given to her by ISIS she went to Turkey and then was taken to Raqqa. It was not at all as she expected, she had to marry someone chosen for who who was abusive to her, one of her friends got blown up by a bomb and she went to identify her body and then had to inform her family. She had two miscarriages before having three children who all died in infancy. She lived in fear for her life either from bombs or from ISIS because as a woman you do as you are told. Her second friend is now dead and she has seen things in her short life that will have been traumatic for even an adult with a wide experience of life let alone a 15/16/17 year old. If you don't have any compassion for her situation, then you don't but I do!

She was a child of 15 when she first joined ISIS and from what is known neurologically about adolescent brain development is clear that decisions and reasoning at that age are not those of an adult. Brains continue to development until well into the 20s.

Factoring in the traumatic environment she subsequently experienced, this would have further markedly affected her neurological and psychological development

Understanding these facts I find it hard to condemn outright but am not naive enough to believe that she may not pose a threat in future without close supervision and possible detention, but also psychological help to process past events and alter her mindset.

If it was my child I wouldn’t want them written off without the chance for rehabilitation.

Whitewavemark2

GrannyGravy13

I have just posted on the other thread, that when Greta Thunberg was 15 she was on the world stage lecturing Presidents and Prime Ministers.

SB was the same age when she stole her sisters passport in order to travel to Turkey and on to Syria for what she describes as a ^life of adventure^

So are you saying that young women are never trafficked or groomed ? That in effect they know exactly what they are doing?

No that is not what I am saying.

But an intelligent Muslim girl (it’s been reported that she was/is intelligent) would have had knowledge of Daesh either through her family, mosque or just by watching/reading news.

She was not drugged or dragged onto the plane, it was meticulously planned even down to her stealing her sisters passport.

I have no idea what information the security services have on SB, I can only assume that it must be incontrovertible and damning.

The U.K. has an official policy of sending offenders back to their place of birth, no matter how long they have resided here. Which is why I think SB should be repatriated to the U.K. and face a trial. Not to do so makes an ass of our extradition laws.

It has been reported that the Bangladesh government have said that Begum will be hanged if she goes there Urms.

I didn’t know that Farzanah 😱

Quite so, GG.
BlueBelle: Mary Bell and James Bulger’s killers cannot be compared with a much older girl who willingly participated in terrorism and mass murder. She is a dangerous enemy of our State, not a young child who committed one murder, heinous though those murders were.

GrannyGravy13

I have just posted on the other thread, that when Greta Thunberg was 15 she was on the world stage lecturing Presidents and Prime Ministers.

SB was the same age when she stole her sisters passport in order to travel to Turkey and on to Syria for what she describes as a ^life of adventure^

So are you saying that young women are never trafficked or groomed ? That in effect they know exactly what they are doing?

foxie48

I feel this demonstrates yet another drop in our standard of morality as a country. tbh I am disgusted, she was trafficked, she is British and she is our responsibility. She made a pretty stupid and dangerous decision as a 15 year old but she was one of three very impressionable girls, the other two are dead. If as a 15 year old she had committed a very serious crime like murder she would have been tried and sentenced as a Juvenile and at some point would have been given the opportunity to rebuild her life, she should have been brought home to be tried.

Yes.

I have just posted on the other thread, that when Greta Thunberg was 15 she was on the world stage lecturing Presidents and Prime Ministers.

SB was the same age when she stole her sisters passport in order to travel to Turkey and on to Syria for what she describes as a life of adventure

Of course she was trafficked. She could not have got to Raqqa without the help of much older men and once there her only escape from the place she was taken was to "marry" an ISIS member. In my book that's being trafficked for the purpose of sexual exploitation, however, I don't think for one minute that I can change the mind of anyone who sees it differently they are as entitled to their opinion as much as I am.

Foxie I agree totally
I think your views are harsh GSM Mary Bell murdered a child but has been given a new life so were the James Bulger murderers
She is our responsibility You don’t know she would radicalise others any more than I know she hopefully wouldn’t

I think she is very regretful of her actions when a child, but unfortunately for her she doesn’t show emotions and has obviously closed herself off, which comes across as hard and unremorseful I think she’s had a horrible life losing all her babies and ending up for years in a refugee camp
She should be reinstated and brought back to her home country not left in limbo land she’s our responsibility and should be dealt with by us not left to another country to sort out she didn’t take on there residency

She was not trafficked. She made a decision of her own volition and was old enough to know what Isis stood for. She has shown no remorse for the killings she witnessed. I have no doubt that she would seek to radicalise others whether here or abroad. Much radicalisation occurs in British jails.

I feel this demonstrates yet another drop in our standard of morality as a country. tbh I am disgusted, she was trafficked, she is British and she is our responsibility. She made a pretty stupid and dangerous decision as a 15 year old but she was one of three very impressionable girls, the other two are dead. If as a 15 year old she had committed a very serious crime like murder she would have been tried and sentenced as a Juvenile and at some point would have been given the opportunity to rebuild her life, she should have been brought home to be tried.

got be be better than living where she is It has been reported that the Bangladesh government have said that Begum will be hanged if she goes there Urms.

I doubt she’ll be choosing that option. I think she, and others in a similar situation, of whom there are apparent quite a few, are now vulnerable to further radicalisation and will become more of a threat to the U.K.

They’ve nothing to lose. Without hope they will want to identify with those they know who will accept them.

On further thinking about this ... her father lives in Bangladesh. I know Begum has never lived there but she does have dual citizenship, does know her dad, would be out of that hell hole of a camp in Syria. I’d be on a plane to him and make a life. Got to be better than living where she is.

I feel sorry for her to be honest. But if M15 have ‘grave concerns’ I’d rather trust them than Begum’s lawyers.

On a few occasions in that documentary Begum did say ‘I don’t want to answer that question’. On a few occasions her silence about events with her jihadist husband concerned me.

In an ideal world she’d be brought home, sentenced, put in prison for her crimes, monitored (? for life - although expensive). But multiply this surveillance and prison costs by goodness knows how many and no wonder many of the general public just think ‘why have her and others back?’.

And I think it’s too simplistic to say ‘it’s the government’. They take in consideration M15’s concerns. Would we really expect otherwise?

I'm not sure it's possible to supervise someone 24/7.

So we have left 60 British citizens for Syria to deal with and stripped another 150 of their citizenship, presumably throwing them back to some poor country expecting them to take responsibility.
It's a disgrace. And it's short sighted. If they are still active those people will be recruiting others. It's unlikely those countries will have the resources to monitor them.
She should be brought back here and supervised closely.
We should accept responsibility for the monsters we created.
I'm ashamed of my country.
And they should know "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"

I trust that the Security Forces know what they are doing. I also watched the programme and did feel compassion for her because I think that she is not in control of her life and that she is still being manipulated.... and thus is still dangerous to this country..