15 minute cities coming to your area soon

Maybe SueDonim planners need to rethink centralisation.

Most of the councils that are signing up to this are actually Labour run or a mixture of Labour and others (Green, Liberal or independent). Its a breach of civil liberties. What if you have relations living in another town or completely, what if they need your help at least once or twice a week and also in emergencies. You couldn't do that with 100 passes and thats 100 passes a household not a person. Its Big Brother in control start that and it wont be long before we are all expected to use digital currency and have no control over our finances either. Also will be controlled on who can buy a car or a new TV or even a bigger house.

Also it wont reduce pollution that much because they will still need to have delivery lorries and other heavy vehicles. There is also a problem with deliveries and tradesmen. There was a guy on Instagram and another on TikTok who couldn't get to a job as there was no way to drive to the address. He was expected to park up and walk to the customer with ladders and or heavy tool boxes and if he needed to get anything else from his van was expected to walk a mile or more and back each time.

I know of two hospitals where that’s happening, Growstuff. Local services were closed down and relocated at larger centres, meaning people had to travel long distances for not particularly complicated stuff (It’s understandable that high-tech medicine can only take place in a few locations).

That put pressure on the big centres, with not enough parking and not enough staff, because the people working at the smaller places didn’t necessarily want to make 50 mile round trips to work. They retired early or found other work. Then someone must have said ‘Ooh, I know what, let’s offer services locally, to save people travelling!’ and they’ve busily been trying to reopen the various units that closed down 20 years ago.

MaggsMcG is there nothing you like about the idea? Wouldn't you like shops to be within 15 minutes walk? Or to have your grandchildren be able to walk or cycle to school?

Why are you looking for potential problems in order to rubbish the whole idea? There's absolutely no reason why every such scheme has to be implemented in exactly the same way. It would always be tailored to local needs. How common are the situations where relatives are in another town and need help from one particular individual? What kind of help is it that only one particular relative can deliver, that can't be dealt with by somebody closer? If that relative is so dependent why are they living in different towns? Schemes can be adapted for exceptional cases. In very exceptional cases it may just come down to the individual taking responsibility for making their own arrangements. Should the London Underground be closed down because some people can't manage escalators?

Why not try looking at the benefits of such a scheme, and thinking about how you would modify it for particular needs instead of dismissing it out of hand? After all, it's not so very far from that model that was tried and tested over centuries call a "village"?

Doodledog

*What we need is better, frequent, affordable public transport*.

I'll vote for that, but I wouldn't have voted for Mussolini .

I'm still at a loss to see the right wing connection. Can anyone please explain without just repeating the accusation?

Yes, I'm not getting it either.

I just ignored it.

growstuff

Dickens I'm cynical about it happening too, which is why I said that it's aspirational.

Nevertheless, when new developments are planned, I think the accessibility of facilities should be considered.

There are millions of people in the UK who live in modern housing developments. Very often there aren't any shops, schools, healthcare facilities, swimming pools, leisure centres, vets, village halls, nurseries, parks and playgrounds etc etc within miles.

It's very difficult for communities to develop in such places and people are forced to have cars. The lack of facilities also means there is no local work, so people have to commute.

I don't know why it's become a topical issue because I read about the idea years ago. I don't really understand why it's been hijacked by people who think it's some kind of conspiracy.

Just outside the ring road in Oxford, not far from where dd1 lives, there’s a huge new development of hundreds of houses and flats ( all pricey, but that’s Oxford for you.). There is a very nice new school, where I’ve taken Gdcs for ‘hip hop’ after school, and lovely outside space and a children’s playground - but AFAIk there is not so much as a corner shop - and it’d be a very long walk to get to one.

And from what I’ve seen recently they’re building even more homes on the formerly greenfield site.

MaggsMcG

Most of the councils that are signing up to this are actually Labour run or a mixture of Labour and others (Green, Liberal or independent). Its a breach of civil liberties. What if you have relations living in another town or completely, what if they need your help at least once or twice a week and also in emergencies. You couldn't do that with 100 passes and thats 100 passes a household not a person. Its Big Brother in control start that and it wont be long before we are all expected to use digital currency and have no control over our finances either. Also will be controlled on who can buy a car or a new TV or even a bigger house.

1. There is nothing in the Oxford traffic scheme (which is not part of their 15 minute city plans) or in any of the proposed 15/20 minute city ideas that stops people driving as often and as far as they like. They just, in the case of Oxford, have to avoid 6 high traffic pinchpoints between 7am and 7pm on days they don’t have a permit for.

2. Which of your civil liberties are breached by having shops, parks, healthcare, playgrounds, schools, and cafes within a 15 - 20 minute walk?

Witzend Oxford, like Sheffield, have agreed to a 15 minute city plan, which has a very long - over 20 years - lead in time. Totally agree about new mini-towns with no shops or other infrastructure. They are the kind of urban sprawl, car dependent places that 15 minute cities and similar initiatives should prevent.

As I said at the start, I think the test of these ideas, which strike me as quite sensible, will be in their implementation - and this, I think, is where they will fall down.

To get these schemes running effectively requires a major redesign of the urban townscape, with smaller shops, more and smaller doctor's surgeries and the recreation of the shopping centres of the past.

I think there will never be enough government funding for all the major infrastruction necessary to make them work properly. Does anyone really believe the NHS will be funded to run lots of smaller GP practices rather than big medical centres? Will central hospitals be willing to centre more services on community hospitals? Will residents be happy with smaller less well stocked local supermarkets?

Or will the NHS at local and national level just say that now we can do everything online, local surgeries are not necessary. Will supermarkets stick to their current pattern of small local shops. knowing people would still rather go to the big supermarket on the outskirts for most of their shopping.

And will private cars be replaced by fleets of delivery vans?

Almost every city in Europe that is more than 100 years old already has 15 minute neighbourhoods (not saying all areas are so). London, of course, is pretty much nothing but. If you live in Hackney, you’ve no need to go to Richmond, or even Haringey, for your daily needs.

I think it’s important to stress that this is about daily needs. Most people don’t need a health centre or dentist, for example, every day. So you might have a health centre that covered two or three ‘zones’ which was still within walking or cycling distance for most people, but good public transport for those who can’t (although driving will still be possible, of course) manage that or who don’t drive.

And yes, shopping patterns would change. And retailers would adapt, as they always have. With careful planning, and appropriate housing density, you could have maybe three grocers, couple of greengrocers, bakeries and butchers, a hardware shop, a bookshop, a florist, a newsagent, a deli or two which doubled as cafes, a pub or two, and a couple of restaurants. Local communities would determine what else. But the aim is 70 -80% local shopping, the rest being town centre/retail park.

What needs to change in the UK for this type of concept to work are

- the planning system which has evolved to separate work and living spaces, forcing travel onto people who could work locally. I understand why it happened in the case of heavy industry, but it is arguably unnecessary for most types of work.
- the massive underinvestment in public transport, and privatisation that has led to fragmented urban services (be worth watching Manchester now transport is back under public control)
- urban density, and many British people’s attitude to it.

Hardly anyone shops like that anymore though, what you would actually need is a large Tesco etc in each area. I havent been to a butcher (for example) in about 20 years.

I don’t want to have to go to half a dozen different shops to get all I need. I like going to one place and getting the whole lot done in one fell swoop. Also, I can’t carry it all home so I’d have to make multiple journeys. And would all these little shops be open until late so people who work all day can shop?

I truly can’t see this idea flying.

Well, how much choice do people want in their everyday shopping?

Shopping habits have changed because planners ensured they did when they approved out-of-town shopping malls.
Most people don't shop daily.

When I lived in Sheffield more years ago than I care to remember, it was a 10 minute walk from our flat down to the main road where there was a butcher, a greengrocer and a bakers, paper shop and launderette* (probably one or two more that I can't remember). If we wanted dry goods or fish there was an excellent, cheap bus service to the city centre, where, of course all the other shops were available

Years ago in small towns there were all those shops plus clothes shops, shoe shops, Woolworths, chemists, stationers etc then came the planned shopping malls and small town centres offering a wide range of shops just closed down, shop by shop. Regular public transport went to and from the malls, then that was cut down and people were forced to use cars.

Perhaps if planners consulted people, sought their views on how they think everything can be improved for the future, instead of trying to manipulate our behaviour to change the way we live, then improvements in the future might be realistically achieved. .

Planners have consulted. Again and again people say they want local shops. But of course those who don’t can still go to large supermarkets.

Given that the few English cities that are planning orotund this concept are 20 years or more from delivering, I imagine I’ll never know whether it worked here or not. I shall watch Paris with interest though.

I'll be well past shopping if I'm still here 🙂

I used to like our local shops and use them regularly but they started disappearing 20 years ago.

For those who are interested in the concept, the Town and Country Planning Association have some resources and information

tcpa.org.uk/collection/the-20-minute-neighbourhood/

Now I understand where the idea that this is some kind of conspiracy to control us all comes from:

www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2023/02/09/tory-mp-uses-conspiracy-theory-in-uk-parliament-against-15-minute-city-concept/?sh=7875844e56ef

Callistemon I'm fortunate enough to live in a small town, where I am a 15 minute walk away from a range of local shops (including a fishmonger, two butchers and traditional greengrocers), a twice weekly market, a leisure centre/swimming pool, good schools, dentists, GPs, cafes and restaurants, a library, a cinema, a concert hall and theatre. Unfortunately, we no longer have a police station and the station is a bit out of town, but there are buses. We even have a PCSO, who rides around on his bike and sings in his spare time.

That's why people want to live here and the property prices are so high. The 15 minute idea is a good one. It's absolutely bonkers that it's been picked up by the conspiracy theory nutters.

SueDonim

I don’t want to have to go to half a dozen different shops to get all I need. I like going to one place and getting the whole lot done in one fell swoop. Also, I can’t carry it all home so I’d have to make multiple journeys. And would all these little shops be open until late so people who work all day can shop?

I truly can’t see this idea flying.

I don't even like shopping, which is why I buy so much online. Nobody's forcing anybody to go to small shops, but lots of people do like them.

I think it's an excellent idea.

Do they? Tescos profits were 2.5 billion in 2022. If you want people to shop locally you would need to provide local large supermarkets.

Siope many thanks of bring the truth as to what this new scheme is really about.

Obviously, so many people do not like the truth. As with the 'debate' about leaving the European Union it was so much easier to spread total lies. I find it most interesting that many of those involved in spreading those lies are amongst those doing the same about this idea.

Surely, anything new initiative which involves trying to cut down pollution can only be good. And, hopefully, this sort of scheme will encourage more public transport.

One of the things that I have found so wonderful about my move three years ago is that I now live within 10-15 walk (okay I use my mobility scooter), for all the groups and meetings I attend over the course of each week. I got rid of my car as it was just sitting in my garage most of the time. Use buses and trains for longer journeys.

Never understand why people always look for negatives instead of positive in new suggestions.

Asking questions is not seeing the negative.

Around the world there is growing interest in creating places in which most of people’s daily needs can be met within a short walk or cycle

If only!
That’s what life for most of us used to be like in towns and villages all over the country!
Then malls and out of town shopping centres, and huge supermarkets sucked the lifeblood out of our High Streets, and the vacuum was filled by chain coffee shops, charity shops, solicitors and estate agents.
Dwindling bus services and parking charges on and around High Streets completed the job.
I am sceptical- to say the least- that any reversal of this trend will take place in my lifetime.

Hospitals became centralised because they can provide more up-to-date procedures and are supposedly centres of excellence.
Small local hospitals cannot ever offer the same facilities although it might be a good idea if Minor Injuries Units were reintroduced instead of people having to travel 20+ miles to A&E.