What goes around comes around

Doodlebug. Not everyone works for huge organisations with the backing of wealthy unions behind them. There are millions of workers out there who cannot possibly go on strike. Many of whom are paid considerably less than some of the workers who are on strike.

Have those who criticise the strikers belonged to unions themselves, or are they the kind who have let others do the heavy lifting for them?

Dickens

It's quite possible the doctors, nurses, ambulance crews, etc will sympathise with those working in the passport office.

I don't know the details but it wouldn't surprise me if the department is understaffed, the workers over-worked and under-paid.

Cuts to public services include government departments like the passport office.

Governments continually want to keep cutting, make 'efficiencies', departments are consistently being asked to do 'more with less'. I believe the strikes were inevitable sooner or later.

Second Paragraph you could be talking about workers in care homes… and even though those are our conditions we would not even consider striking and putting vulnerable elderly people at risk…

Wyllow3

Gin

MaggsMcG you make a good point. I agree the majority if the strikers do deserve to be paid more but they nearly all are financed from the public purse. To award increases the money must come from cuts in other services or higher taxes. I would happily pay more tax as would most people I know (both Tory and Labour supporters) but our present Government would never sanction such a suggestion. Would all Gransneters be happy to pay more?

Yes I would be prepared to pay more on my taxes. Our country is notorious for demanding what we need but not being prepared to pay it.

I agree.

... posted too soon!

lowdownnhs.info/private-providers/unhealthy-profits-pfi-in-the-nhs/

Introduced by John Major and the baton passed to Tony Blair.

... it seemed like a good idea at the time, a way to fund big spending projects, and reducing the burden on taxpayers. BUT, such funding does cost more in the long term doesn't it?

"FULL FACT" answers some of the questions - my 'go-to' for quick referencing.

Anniel

Thank you Dickens for your informative post. I know the Tories are sunk and it is clear that the calibre of politicians generally does not impress. However, the problems with the NHS internal market started with the PFI but that is not acknoedged in Grantanow’s post. According to her everything wrong is due to the dreadful Tories! Some of it is but not all. So why cant we find a balance?

The NHS internal market isn't the same as PFI, nor is it on the whole about the NHS buying in "ad hoc" care.

Anniel

Thank you Dickens for your informative post. I know the Tories are sunk and it is clear that the calibre of politicians generally does not impress. However, the problems with the NHS internal market started with the PFI but that is not acknoedged in Grantanow’s post. According to her everything wrong is due to the dreadful Tories! Some of it is but not all. So why cant we find a balance?

Here's an interesting 'lowdown' on the legacy of PFI.

I find there are Takers and givers everywhere. I have had the good fortune to know both sets of people like that. Now I am much more aware, and much more careful in choosing my friends.

Juicylucy

I saw the irony in the op. I’m not interested in political debate I get enough of that from TV and my news feed. I will say what has been a discussion of late in my area is. The teachers can strike on school days yet parents take children out of school one day early for a holiday and they get fined. How’s that fair. By the way I have 3 granddaughters still of school age so I see how’s if affected there parents.

It's not 'fair' or unfair - they are two different things. Taking a child out of school to go on holiday is something that is now a punishable offence. I don't personally think it should be, and massively disapprove of Head Teachers having the power to fine citizens, or of a situation where those who can afford it can pay the fine and get cheaper holidays, and those who can't have to go without) but that is an entirely different thing from teachers having the right to strike to improve pay and conditions. If parents want to complain about holiday restrictions they should do so, but to link it to union action makes no sense.

Thank you Dickens for your informative post. I know the Tories are sunk and it is clear that the calibre of politicians generally does not impress. However, the problems with the NHS internal market started with the PFI but that is not acknoedged in Grantanow’s post. According to her everything wrong is due to the dreadful Tories! Some of it is but not all. So why cant we find a balance?

Grantanow

The real issue is that the Tory government in power for 13 years has allowed this situation to develop. Of course striking workers and their unions will seek to shift blame for deaths and much else onto the government just as Tory Ministers try to shift blame onto the strikers. It's simply a rhetorical tactic to try to gain moral advantage in the minds of the public. But ultimately it is the Tory government that carries responsibility for governing and their failures are all too evident despite Sunak's attempts to recover their position after Johnson and Truss.

... this.

The real issue is that the Tory government in power for 13 years has allowed this situation to develop. Of course striking workers and their unions will seek to shift blame for deaths and much else onto the government just as Tory Ministers try to shift blame onto the strikers. It's simply a rhetorical tactic to try to gain moral advantage in the minds of the public. But ultimately it is the Tory government that carries responsibility for governing and their failures are all too evident despite Sunak's attempts to recover their position after Johnson and Truss.

I saw the irony in the op. I’m not interested in political debate I get enough of that from TV and my news feed. I will say what has been a discussion of late in my area is. The teachers can strike on school days yet parents take children out of school one day early for a holiday and they get fined. How’s that fair. By the way I have 3 granddaughters still of school age so I see how’s if affected there parents.

Anniel

I have every sympathy with the right to strike. I think the problem with GRANSNET is that we are rather politically divided and I do dislike how some people here never want a measured discussion. I am awful with names but the post about the NHS internal market was spot on. Now this is not the fault of the nurses or doctors. You need to go back to the Blair years and his PFI. If we look at the way Hospital Trusts must use the original contractors to do repair work, extensions and other services, then they are having to pay well over the odds. There are no simple solutions. We all know that, The NHS takes a huge amount of govt money to run, but both major political parties are too scared to grasp the nettle and restructure the service. France, Germany,Australia manage to run decent services. Eire charges a fee for every doctors visit….I am no expert but instead of us arguing and getting nasty, I think if posters who live in other countries tell us more about their systems it would be useful. The NHS is no longer the best Health Service in the world. Sadly, it seems the general public do not support major change and so we get the argument that the Tories just want an American system. In the Blair years, the govt. used the private hospitals to carry out major surgery. I met a large group of Welsh patients who were having heart surgery at the Wellington in London at a cost to the NHS. And before I moved, our GP sent patients for tests like ultrasound to a private centre which had an NHS contract. Patients did not mind. So can we cool the discussion down and not attack people who differ in their points of view from our own? It can get tedious and non productive.

I posted the report about the internal market issue .

I think you're right that we should be looking at the way other countries run their health services, and the outcomes.

Some have told us about health services in France, and Germany, etc.

I posted about my experience of the Norwegian health service during my 12 years living in that country. It operates in a similar fashion to other European models... not entirely free at the point of need - unless you reach 'crunch-point'... admission to hospital via A&E, where it is.

The one important factor regarding Norway is that the payments patients have to make are affordable - and capped. Even more important is the fact that Norwegians enjoy high wages.

I think people are afraid we will end up with the American model here because we appear to have had discussions and meetings with US healthcare providers and various other companies involved in the 'industry'. A two tier system of private health insurance for those that can afford it, and a 'Medicaid' type of safety net for those that can't is, I think, what most people fear. Which, IMO, would be disastrous - and not just for those in the second category. Why? Because no-one can accurately foresee their future health needs - private health insurance doesn't cover you for everything. I also have first-hand knowledge of how even the best and most comprehensive cover will, if you are unlucky, ultimately 'run-out'. A fairly wealthy friend in the US (now deceased) paid high premiums for comprehensive cover. A succession of surgeries and various procedures for his disease basically bankrupted him. All the co-pays and additional costs which were not covered mounted up over the months and years, and he first had to sell his business, and then his home to cover them, and he and his family ended up living on Medicaid/Medicare - and the charitable donations from the residents of his home town where he finally rented a small apartment.

Lots to think about?

I have every sympathy with the right to strike. I think the problem with GRANSNET is that we are rather politically divided and I do dislike how some people here never want a measured discussion. I am awful with names but the post about the NHS internal market was spot on. Now this is not the fault of the nurses or doctors. You need to go back to the Blair years and his PFI. If we look at the way Hospital Trusts must use the original contractors to do repair work, extensions and other services, then they are having to pay well over the odds. There are no simple solutions. We all know that, The NHS takes a huge amount of govt money to run, but both major political parties are too scared to grasp the nettle and restructure the service. France, Germany,Australia manage to run decent services. Eire charges a fee for every doctors visit….I am no expert but instead of us arguing and getting nasty, I think if posters who live in other countries tell us more about their systems it would be useful. The NHS is no longer the best Health Service in the world. Sadly, it seems the general public do not support major change and so we get the argument that the Tories just want an American system. In the Blair years, the govt. used the private hospitals to carry out major surgery. I met a large group of Welsh patients who were having heart surgery at the Wellington in London at a cost to the NHS. And before I moved, our GP sent patients for tests like ultrasound to a private centre which had an NHS contract. Patients did not mind. So can we cool the discussion down and not attack people who differ in their points of view from our own? It can get tedious and non productive.

It's interesting to think many of those people out clapping the NHS staff and other key workers during Covid pandemic are now criticising the svery ame people they applauded for asking to be paid commensurate with their value to society. What else can those workers do to get the government to listen.? If they is another way, why not tell us all , rather that complain about strike impact. If there were no impact, there would be no strikes.

seadragon

Germanshepherdsmum

Yes, well said Eric. I really don’t understand how doctors, nurses and ambulance staff can strike when they know what the results of their actions will be - in many cases, unnecessarily protracted suffering and the worsening of conditions, in others death.

Have you worked in a hospital recently Germanshephersmum?The results of staff not going on strike will be the complete collapse of the NHS and our having to pay massive insurance premiums which will not cover every condition we may suffer from...!. Staff are leaving in droves because of poor pay, having to work extra, usually 12 hour shifts, often with NO BREAKS even to use the toilet, constantly to cover major gaps in staffing as colleagues collapse with chronic illness and/or exhaustion not to mention massive responsibility when assessing and treating each and every patient. As a medical social worker I could flit in an out of different wards, driving between the hospitals I covered... including the much missed convalescent hospital...patients at home following up those post discharge
hospital. I found the heat in the wards debilitating when I was there any length of time without having to wear and change protective gear constantly. I was doing that the 16 years ago. It is 10 times worse now post covid and with the accumulated back log. As I have said elsewhere, I was shocked to find Junior (qualified!) doctors earned less than I did working long hours, studying and having to pay for their studies out of these low wages. They are not paid much more now. Thirty-five per cent of what I was earning is actually not very much to ask for to retain the doctors - and other staff that we have and maybe, just maybe....... save the NHS. More people will die if we continue to lose staff at the rate we're doing..

Well said Seadragon!

This is not a new report

www.opendemocracy.net/en/ournhs/billions-of-wasted-nhs-cash-noone-wants-to-mention/

... but if anyone is interested in the "waste" of money in the NHS - and many people mention it - then it's worth looking at what might be the cost of the internal market.

It's a long report, but you can read bits of each section to get an overall idea.

The worst aspect of this is that no-one knows the cost of this market reform because (as the report says) successive governments have refused to produce any meaning figures that would establish the cost of this 'market', and so it's left to academics, MPs and activists, to try to work it out.

And whatever figures they come up with will be challenged - even though there's basically nothing for the government to challenge the figures with on their part.

I wouldn't be surprised if that 'waste' would have been sufficient to fund some of the pay rises that the government insists are unaffordable. They know the cost of the pay rises - but not the cost of the internal market that they endorse.

Gin

MaggsMcG you make a good point. I agree the majority if the strikers do deserve to be paid more but they nearly all are financed from the public purse. To award increases the money must come from cuts in other services or higher taxes. I would happily pay more tax as would most people I know (both Tory and Labour supporters) but our present Government would never sanction such a suggestion. Would all Gransneters be happy to pay more?

Yes I would be prepared to pay more on my taxes. Our country is notorious for demanding what we need but not being prepared to pay it.

We have just returned from a visit to England for the first time in 5 years. The difference is palpable. A general feeling of discontent (as expressed in this particular discussion) seemed to be everywhere. It made us very sad. I don’t have the answers, but I hope everything improves for everybody…..

Germanshepherdsmum

Yes, well said Eric. I really don’t understand how doctors, nurses and ambulance staff can strike when they know what the results of their actions will be - in many cases, unnecessarily protracted suffering and the worsening of conditions, in others death.

Have you worked in a hospital recently Germanshephersmum?The results of staff not going on strike will be the complete collapse of the NHS and our having to pay massive insurance premiums which will not cover every condition we may suffer from...!. Staff are leaving in droves because of poor pay, having to work extra, usually 12 hour shifts, often with NO BREAKS even to use the toilet, constantly to cover major gaps in staffing as colleagues collapse with chronic illness and/or exhaustion not to mention massive responsibility when assessing and treating each and every patient. As a medical social worker I could flit in an out of different wards, driving between the hospitals I covered... including the much missed convalescent hospital...patients at home following up those post discharge
hospital. I found the heat in the wards debilitating when I was there any length of time without having to wear and change protective gear constantly. I was doing that the 16 years ago. It is 10 times worse now post covid and with the accumulated back log. As I have said elsewhere, I was shocked to find Junior (qualified!) doctors earned less than I did working long hours, studying and having to pay for their studies out of these low wages. They are not paid much more now. Thirty-five per cent of what I was earning is actually not very much to ask for to retain the doctors - and other staff that we have and maybe, just maybe....... save the NHS. More people will die if we continue to lose staff at the rate we're doing..

All that workers have left is their right to withdraw their labour! I am retired and I am travelling at the moment , currently in NZ next stops are Sydney and Singapore I hope but I support any workers feeling that they are being ignored by a government which has treated them all appallingly for the past 12 years! There are some very self righteous people in this group who show little compassion or understanding for those in need ! But with freedom of speech these self righteous ones can have their day and their platform so can strikers!

Some people need to give their head a wobble ! Strikes cause problems for everyone but
sometimes not having one causes nothing to make a change
that is desperately needed.

MaggsMcG you make a good point. I agree the majority if the strikers do deserve to be paid more but they nearly all are financed from the public purse. To award increases the money must come from cuts in other services or higher taxes. I would happily pay more tax as would most people I know (both Tory and Labour supporters) but our present Government would never sanction such a suggestion. Would all Gransneters be happy to pay more?

Ziplok totally agree. In what way is it remotely “funny” - I think that is the definition of a joke????