Gender stuff gone mad ....

And for the Nth+1 time - it's not about checking! If an obvious man had walked into a Ladies' loo or a changing room a few years ago he would be challenged. Now all he has to do is say he's a woman, and there is nothing anyone can (or is willing) to do.

Years ago, my friend was sexually assaulted in the Ladies in a student bar. It may have been much worse had someone not spotted a man going into the corridor where the loos were. These days that wouldn't happen.

Does nobody read these threads?

Luckygirl that must be difficult for you. I know what you mean about lines being drawn. I think all you can do is make it clear that they can be redrawn if your granddaughter wants that.

Namsnanny
You can be assured that I put my granddaughter right every time she comes out with any of this crap, no holds barred.

Maddyone:

'Women are more vulnerable than men, and more frail ( especially older women) and most certainly weaker.'

No they're not! Some may be - others aren't.

'that’s why women need safe spaces in certain situations such as female only changing rooms'

(Here we go again - for the Nth time) there have never been safe, female only spaces - apart from imaginary ones - as nobody is ever checked.

My GC is identifying as something (neither male nor female) and we try to remember to say "they." I find it so distressing as it causing them no end of unhappiness. And how to backtrack if needed without losing face? It is all very sad.

I agree too. The sale of binders and the prescription of hormones to underage children should be banned IMO.

That is so true about young people Luckygirl13.

Excellent post Lucky, totally agree.

But I can sympathise with anyone who feels they are in the 'wrong body' - for a few years, I definitely was.

I share that sympathy. But the problem lies in the fact that it has all become a "cause" with rights to fight for.

Young people are not allowed to have a period of confusion without now asking themselves if they should be treated medically, or attaching a label to themselves. The sort of strident campaigning and medicalisation that we have now is a serious danger to young people, who need the peace and privacy to adapt to who they are without some faction jumping on their bandwagon and drugs companies and private surgeons exploiting them.

By the way, I endorse the recommendation of Grayson's Perry's book "The Descent of Man." It is intelligent and compassionate.

No, NN I agree with you. Children don’t make this stuff up, and they are getting the vocabulary from somewhere. ‘The wrong body’, ‘their authentic selves’, it’s all from the TRA playbook, and I really think they should be protected from it.

I know that many children have mental health issues, and are confused about all sorts of things. Many have grown up being told that they can be whatever they want to be, too. It’s a dangerous combination.

This will seem very unfair of me, but as I read all of the posts, especially those who try hard to understand the wants needs and ways we can all try to exist together.

I become so frustrated on behalf of the young children at school who this very moment (not literally) are being indoctrinated with fear and mis information.

Time is passing and their little brains are being manipulated and we seem powerless to stop it.

I hope this post doesnt disrupt the 'flow' of the thread

Doodledog

Was that not about resenting gender stereotypes and restrictions, Dickens? I can understand that, and am very supportive of freeing people from feeling obliged to conform to ‘male’ and ‘female’ behaviour conventions.

I don’t think that this means that people are ‘in the wrong body’, however; and I feel that the explosion in the number of children using those words is evidence of the influence of adults with an agenda.

I’m not trying to invalidate your feelings - just trying to clarify what you are saying.

Was that not about resenting gender stereotypes and restrictions

It may well have been DD I'm not sure - I know I resented growing boobs and wanted to stay flat-chested. But maybe this too was all part of the rejection of stereotypes.

I think, taking your point, it's fortunate that there wasn't the same 'culture' surrounding identity as there is now. I don't think my mother would've hauled me off to any sexual-health clinic - she was very laid-back about my 'identity crisis' and basically just indulged it as did most of the rest of the family - but I might have sought out such a clinic myself, such was the intensity of feeling.

... and then, without any therapeutical input, 'things' just fell into place. As it were. But, does it work like that for those who genuinely hate parts of their bodies? I've read of people who have requested amputations because they've felt that a leg or something isn't part of them - it feels 'alien'. Can you imagine that? I can't. It's extreme, but obviously, it's real. I know it's a rare form of BDD, but it does prove that psychologically it is possible for the mind to be illogically convinced that a normal body is somehow 'wrong'.

Was that not about resenting gender stereotypes and restrictions, Dickens? I can understand that, and am very supportive of freeing people from feeling obliged to conform to ‘male’ and ‘female’ behaviour conventions.

I don’t think that this means that people are ‘in the wrong body’, however; and I feel that the explosion in the number of children using those words is evidence of the influence of adults with an agenda.

I’m not trying to invalidate your feelings - just trying to clarify what you are saying.

Daddima

Why are the song and dance about pronouns? Aren’t they usually used when the person isn’t there, so they’ll be none the wiser?
And I’d think if you’ve decided to change your gender, then you’d have more pressing concerns.

They are usually used when the person is not there, but occasionally will be used if a group of more than two are present. If you take the case at my DGD’s all girl school, the trans had their fans watching out for what they saw as misgendering when they were not there and reported the offenders to the staff then demanded that they be punished.

Why are the song and dance about pronouns? Aren’t they usually used when the person isn’t there, so they’ll be none the wiser?
And I’d think if you’ve decided to change your gender, then you’d have more pressing concerns.

Doodledog

*I don't know if it's a deliberate ploy, or whether those who accuse us of being anti-trans genuinely believe we are - maybe a bit of both, but either way, it's tiresome.*

I think a lot of the slurs come because people don't have answers to sensible questions about what 'living as a woman' means, or how someone can 'just feel that they are in the wrong body'. Maybe it's frustration that they know their 'arguments' don't stand up that makes them lash out?

Yes, that's a point.

Although I have to say that if someone told me that they didn't feel comfortable or happy 'in their body' - I'd be inclined to believe them. During puberty, I was distinctly unhappy that I was developing into a woman although how much of this was a 'cultural' thing - in that certain behaviours were expected of 'young ladies' (1950s), I don't really know. It might even have been that I wasn't ready for adulthood. I was at boarding school (co-ed) and the rules were rigid... boys did this, girls did that. I wanted to do woodwork and play cricket, instead I was forced to do domestic science and play lacrosse, and I hated both. And told anybody, repeatedly, whose ear I could grab how "unfair" and "stupid" it was. Maybe all young people go through this stage, I don't know, but I was certainly miserable for a quite a while because the 'inner' me did not identify with the biological fact of being a female. At all.

That changed virtually overnight though. My mother, a connoisseur of the Nouvelle Vague cinema started to take me to see the films of the time and I fell in love with the main characters, one after the other, and tried to imitate the looks of actresses like Jeanne Moreau, Catherine Deneuve, etc... so God knows what was going on in my brain.

But I can sympathise with anyone who feels they are in the 'wrong body' - for a few years, I definitely was. However, I don't think I 'identified' as a male, nor did I try to live like one. But I did envy their freedoms. I wore boy's jeans so that I could enjoy more of that 'freedom'; the present from a family member of a 'frilly' blouse sent me into a depression; friends trying to get me to experiment with make-up made me angry. And I didn't stop wearing ankle socks until I was about 16 because the alternative was suspenders and stockings which I thought were 'disgusting'. It was an unhappy period.

Here are a few links for those interested enough in the threat to women's rights.

www.spiked-online.com/2023/08/08/the-trans-movement-is-becoming-more-violent/?fbclid=IwAR13YGdCwYfTUMV3LvET4IBAgPV0FBzwzjuiN7Ou6kf_jmQgwePLIO0cPJU

www.spectator.co.uk/article/men-dont-belong-at-lesbian-speed-dating-events/?fbclid=IwAR2A0AZ3WB0sifpQjTCsmNHIU7Q8ZmaTvcquyeGXB6V7Bwzllkz6vnTqvpo

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/a-week-in-the-war-on-women-monday-0bd?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share&fbclid=IwAR09xO1I8vLwQFNP36pHqrISslbbxYky7CDCD11B5awH4b_mSQXSkysJOhE

I think it's a deliberate ploy Dickens and those making them against the GN's who they disagree with are simply demonstrating the weakness of their own arguments.

Absolutely, Elegran. That used to be the stance taken by Eddie Izzard when his maleness was getting him higher pay and more roles. I’m not at all suggesting that GP will change his mind about this, incidentally- I believe he has more integrity than that.

LTP Grayson Perry is definitely a man but at times chooses to dress as a woman. He is also a man who rejects the macho tradition that everything should be angled to suit the male view of life, or that superior strength, the use of violence and demanding male rights to do what they wish without regard to the effect should take precedence over the different power structures which exist between men and women.
Read his book "The descent of man".

A little clip of Graham outside the Scottish Parliament.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12419961/Fringe-Graham-Linehan-street-Frankie-Boyle-raping-women.html

eddiecat
He not only wrote Father Ted. He was co- writer on The IT Crowd and Motherland.
I thought it interesting that his show was outside the Scottish parliament 😉
There is talk of him suing the 2 venues that cancelled his shows.

eddiecat78

I'm afraid I can't do links but please Google Graham Linehan (who wrote Father Ted). His life, including his marriage, has been destroyed because he spoke out about Trans activists and this week he has had 2 venues at the Edinburgh Fringe cancel his show because of his views - resulting in him doing the show out of doors to a very appreciative audience

And that’s yet another example of men and the females that support men’s rights wanting to put men first.
Sad when they prove my point . . . Even more sad that they’re turning on truthful males as well as females.

I'm afraid I can't do links but please Google Graham Linehan (who wrote Father Ted). His life, including his marriage, has been destroyed because he spoke out about Trans activists and this week he has had 2 venues at the Edinburgh Fringe cancel his show because of his views - resulting in him doing the show out of doors to a very appreciative audience

We’re not anti men living as women, we’re anti men thinking that by wearing female clothes and taking a few hormones., that they can force the lie on to the rest of us that they are female; they’re not! And that they can force themselves into female safe spaces thus making those spaces no longer safe! Of course we know that many transwomen live their lives peacefully and intend no harm to anyone, but a significant number, as evidenced by the headlines in recent years, do intend to harm. How else can anyone explain a transwoman being convicted of rape?

I don't know if it's a deliberate ploy, or whether those who accuse us of being anti-trans genuinely believe we are - maybe a bit of both, but either way, it's tiresome.

I think a lot of the slurs come because people don't have answers to sensible questions about what 'living as a woman' means, or how someone can 'just feel that they are in the wrong body'. Maybe it's frustration that they know their 'arguments' don't stand up that makes them lash out?