Gender stuff gone mad ....

Mollygo

It’s the assumption or outright declaration made in posts like that of LTP above,
that posters like Smileless2012, or Dickens, or Doodledog and others including me, are totally anti trans that are wrong.

Any poster who has read any of these threads will know that the rejection of TW is only referred to in relation to the small but very vocal groups of TW and their supporters who want to use their trans status to:

Cheat, by entering female competitions

Threaten, by entering female safe spaces including toilets whist making it clear that they are actually male

Lie, by claiming to be female when a female attendant has been requested

Demand that females should accept them as women in sexual encounters

Resort to violence when their demands aren’t met.

*Choosing to live as a different gender apart from instances like those above is a personal choice and harms no one. That has been repeatedly said on GN, but repeatedly ignored by those who put men’s needs first.*

👍👍👍

It’s the assumption or outright declaration made in posts like that of LTP above, that posters like Smileless2012, or Dickens, or Doodledog and others including me, are totally anti trans that are wrong.

It becomes tedious having to continually point this out, and the most irritating aspect of it is that, in doing so, we are accused of "hysteria".

I don't know if it's a deliberate ploy, or whether those who accuse us of being anti-trans genuinely believe we are - maybe a bit of both, but either way, it's tiresome.

It’s the assumption or outright declaration made in posts like that of LTP above,
that posters like Smileless2012, or Dickens, or Doodledog and others including me, are totally anti trans that are wrong.

Any poster who has read any of these threads will know that the rejection of TW is only referred to in relation to the small but very vocal groups of TW and their supporters who want to use their trans status to:

Cheat, by entering female competitions

Threaten, by entering female safe spaces including toilets whist making it clear that they are actually male

Lie, by claiming to be female when a female attendant has been requested

Demand that females should accept them as women in sexual encounters

Resort to violence when their demands aren’t met.

Choosing to live as a different gender apart from instances like those above is a personal choice and harms no one. That has been repeatedly said on GN, but repeatedly ignored by those who put men’s needs first.

Well said Dickens 09.50.28

Lovetopaint037

Everyone should live the life they want. The rest of us should just butt out.

I think women would welcome the option to extricate themselves from the lives of the trans gender community, but when a minority in that community wants to impose its ideology on us to the extent that it wants to control your right to free speech, and dismantle the rights that we have fought for - when it wants to force you to accept that a biological male can be a woman any time he says he is - then no, we won't "butt" out. In fact, it is they who should butt out.

I am sick to death of all this. The world is mad enough without all this nonsense.

What's decent, kind and honest about trans women, men, wanting to compete against women in sport where their male physiology gives them an advantage?

What's decent, kind and honest about TRA's threatening women with violence because they dare to say that a man cannot become a woman? Trans women insulting lesbians because they wont have sex with them, because they only want a physical relationship with women. Trans women who think they should be housed in women's refuge centre. A trans woman who committed a violent act against a woman before deciding to transition and their victim has to refer to them in court as 'she'.

While the rest of us butt out, the aforementioned will continue to happen and it was the unwillingness to call this out in the first place, and the threats and insults to those who had the courage to do so, that has brought us to where we are now.

They are no doubt in the minority but they are a very vocal and for reasons I cannot fathom, powerful minority who would like nothing more than for us to butt out. Well I've no intentions of doing so.

Hetty58

Like most people, in my everyday life and dealings with people, I really don't care what gender they are - or what sex they are either.

What I do object to is the assumption, by some that women are, somehow, vulnerable, frail and weak - what an insult! We're not special and in need of protection.

I don't believe that "everyday life" is the problem for most women. Some of course will be resistant to the concept of gender-identity in principle, for various reasons, but most rational individuals will know and understand - especially those women who've been involved in the earlier feminist movement - that we don't necessarily conform culturally and socially to the stereotypes of our biological sex.

The problem arises when women are in vulnerable situations where, physically, they are weaker than men. There might be exceptions, where a woman is physically able to overpower a man, but mostly, they are not. The statistics on male violence against women speak for themselves.

I don't think being "special" comes into it - men, mostly, are physically stronger than women. That is a fact.

I would agree if that were all there was to it, LTP. But it’s not. Someone just living their life as they wish is one thing, and I, like many others who feel as I do, wish them well. We get one life, and should live it to be happy.

It is when people (many of whom aren’t even trans, but have the arrogance to speak for others) insist that the language changes, that women can no longer compete against other women in sport, and that men have a right to watch women and girls undress that I object. Transpeople have a right to a peaceful life, but not to disrupt the lives of women- we are important too.

As long as a person is decent, kind and honest why is it important? Everyone is entitled to live their lives as they wish. If someone is born one gender but isn’t happy and would like to be another then so what! So long as no harm is done to others I can’t see what the problem is. Grayson Perry is definitely a man but at times chooses to dress as a woman. So what! Obviously doesn’t bother Phillipa. Years ago I used to encounter a boy who walked with his head down and wouldn’t respond to a “good morning”and just looked unhappy. Then one day I heard someone say hello to me. She greeted me with a smile and explained she was now a girl and so happy. I have never forgotten the transformation. Everyone should live the life they want. The rest of us should just butt out.

You make a good point there, maddyone.

And that’s why women will always be at risk from men’s behaviour.

It’s some men’s behaviour that is the problem, not whether women are,
vulnerable, frail and weak all the time.

As for whether women are special or not I’m not sure what Hetty58 means.

TW are, with each encroachment onto female rights, female safe spaces, female sports etc. claiming that they are a special case for entitlement.

I’m not aware that females are doing the same thing. Perhaps Hetty58 could enlighten me?

Hotdogs are not dogs, seahorses are not horses and transwomen are not women.

Hetty58

Like most people, in my everyday life and dealings with people, I really don't care what gender they are - or what sex they are either.

What I do object to is the assumption, by some that women are, somehow, vulnerable, frail and weak - what an insult! We're not special and in need of protection.

Tell that to a woman who’s been raped. Or a woman who been violently attacked and assaulted by a man. Or to the family of a woman murdered by a man.

Women are not as strong physically as men. It’s a fact. And that’s why women will always be at risk from men’s behaviour. Women are more vulnerable than men, and more frail ( especially older women) and most certainly weaker. These are facts and that’s why women need safe spaces in certain situations such as female only changing rooms.

Doodledog

Women have been accused of ‘hysteria’ since Freud. It usually means that they are standing up to men.

Quite.

It's often the way, when women adamantly oppose something that's being imposed on them, to accuse them of hysteria.

The topic is being discussed on this thread and some of us have strong opinions on it. Voicing them does not mean that we are the traditional 'neurotic' female.

In fact, I'd say the hysteria is more apparent in the minority of noisy activists who go completely OTT because lesbians don't want to have sex with them.

Well yes franbern the explosion in female to Male transitioning was part of the problem within the tavistock, it's what the whistleblowers talked about whilst you presumably were lecturing us all to be kind. Oh and transmen are as a rule housed in the Male estate in prisons thank god because of the risks. Because sex not gender is important in many cases.

I received a letter plus attached document about forthcoming changes to the local Library service, including the required pronouns for the female who signed the letter.

What I required was her title, that is Miss, Mrs, Dr, possibly Mr, Sir, Lady etc,
My response concerning the proposed changes is irate, and to be pompous, addressing this person by her first name presupposes a familiarity which does not exist. I am also aware that many employees have been granted the right to use first names only, to protect their identity, which infuriates me as they have every detail of my name, address, d.o.b. bank account, utility bills etc available.

I know I am getting old, but honestly, it was so much easier in the 1970s when we met a friend let's call him Bill in women's clothes, hair-do and shoes out for the evening, we just said,"Nice dress, you remind me of my friend, Bill, what's your name?" And Bill told us what his name was when he was cross-dressing.

When Matilda (Bill in female clothes) needed to be excused he went into the Gents' as everyone in the pub knew he was Bill on week-night and Matilda at the weekend or whenever else he felt like it.

Mollygo

Franbern

Most females don’t care whether males are trans or not until they start demanding female rights, or female safe spaces or making it clear that they’re still male and they can do what they want.

Comparing trans with gays and lesbians is offensive to many gays and lesbians. They never claimed to be something they are not.

Hopefully those trans and TRA who are making life difficult for non-threatening trans and those people, make or female who think lying is acceptable if a man is doing the lying are already feeling the shame. . .

. . . but I won’t hold my breath.

Perhaps most, or many, or some, females don't care about biological sex or gender identity in situations where it's not actually important. Me among them. If I'm in my group sharing our 'interest' - the sex or gender of the participants is irrelevant. My own group is run by a trans woman, and I'm the 'helper' - the focus is entirely on the particular interest and our contributions to it.

We are not all resistant to 'change' - our group has been running for years. We've watched 'him' transition to 'her' and I'm not aware of anyone feeling uncomfortable with it - partly because it's been done with grace and our TW 'leader' doesn't make a big deal of it.

Biological males identifying as women in women's safe spaces is entirely a different matter. It's not then a question of being resistant to change, it's a matter of resisting the demands and threats of a minority of men... something we've been doing for most of our lives. Whether they are Incels, Trans Women or just plain old heterosexual males, their misogyny is the defining element among them all. I'll say it again, trans women who threaten women with their 'girl-dicks' are simply men threatening women with their dicks, as they have done, for centuries - in one way or another.

Women have been accused of ‘hysteria’ since Freud. It usually means that they are standing up to men.

Franbern

Most females don’t care whether males are trans or not until they start demanding female rights, or female safe spaces or making it clear that they’re still male and they can do what they want.

Comparing trans with gays and lesbians is offensive to many gays and lesbians. They never claimed to be something they are not.

Hopefully those trans and TRA who are making life difficult for non-threatening trans and those people, make or female who think lying is acceptable if a man is doing the lying are already feeling the shame. . .

. . . but I won’t hold my breath.

I do know quite a few of same sex couples, both men and women. Several of them married, others in long-term, happy relationships. Can remember the first I knew right back in the late 1950's (female - so legal even then).

I also know locally quite a few of people (mainly young) who call themselves either transgender or (more commonly now amongst the youngsters) - non-gender.

The over-whelming majority of those who say they are trans are girls, living as men.

So, are these 'threatening' other females??? Are they making themsleves more vulnerable? (they tend to use male loos when out and about).

There is a lot of hysteria surrounding this whole trans idea. Trans people have lived amongst us for centuries, many not even being realised until after their deaths. For the majority of people on here, the chances re that you will not even know any such people, definitely will have no bearing on your lives.

Can be a very difficult time, if a person realises that they are trans. Nothing at all to laugh about - much turmoil and often difficult mental health as a result. The first that I (knowingly) met was back in 2010, through U3A. A 60-year old transwoman, with the physique of the builder that she had been for most of her life. A widow with a son. The story of their life and their transition and the problems it threw up gave me a much wider understanding and sympathy for that.

Attutudes to Trans people brings to me the memories of the fifties when going out to do a little bit of 'queer bashing' was far too normal. Hopefully, those who took part in that and are still around, feel the shame of it now.

Mollygo

And here’s another poster who puts male rights first. Well done Wenmore.

If WI members were unaware, then, although it’s another example of males lying to get what they want, these TW would go unnoticed, like the ones Fleurpepper mentions.
Why would these TW need to announce to the WI that they are trans?
Glorianny, trisher et al have constantly repeated the mantra that you can’t tell just by looking. I’ve heard forever about people’s tall deep-voiced, muscular female friends.
So letting the WI know that you are trans and you’re in the WI is just another way of saying you’ve circumvented female rules again.

If you feel the need to say you’re a different gender, no problem. If you use that to go places you are not entitled to be, cheat to take part in activities etc, then big problem.

*I wish I knew why it’s suddenly acceptable for men to lie to get what they want. Do the people who accept and even encourage this lying believe everyone has the right to lie to get anything they want?*

They could set up their own trans, non binarywhatever knitting group. Why barge in on women only groups.

Scribbles

Marmin
As we age it is usual to become more resistant to change.

I'm not resistant to change but I am resistant to daft.

And as we age we get a bit more experienced at distinguishing daft from just different.

And here’s another poster who puts male rights first. Well done Wenmore.

If WI members were unaware, then, although it’s another example of males lying to get what they want, these TW would go unnoticed, like the ones Fleurpepper mentions.
Why would these TW need to announce to the WI that they are trans?
Glorianny, trisher et al have constantly repeated the mantra that you can’t tell just by looking. I’ve heard forever about people’s tall deep-voiced, muscular female friends.
So letting the WI know that you are trans and you’re in the WI is just another way of saying you’ve circumvented female rules again.

If you feel the need to say you’re a different gender, no problem. If you use that to go places you are not entitled to be, cheat to take part in activities etc, then big problem.

I wish I knew why it’s suddenly acceptable for men to lie to get what they want. Do the people who accept and even encourage this lying believe everyone has the right to lie to get anything they want?

NanKate

Who would have believed that the Women’s Institute accepts transwomen whether they have fully transitioned or not 😳

What about the natal women in our Institute who have sadly been in abusive relations, who will protect them?

It’s a disgrace.

The WI has gone right up in my estimation. (Though the topic for discussion here is binary/non-binary, not transgender)

If I met anyone who called themselves They I would assume they had worms.
If not Him or Her I’d use It.

Hetty58

Like most people, in my everyday life and dealings with people, I really don't care what gender they are - or what sex they are either.

What I do object to is the assumption, by some that women are, somehow, vulnerable, frail and weak - what an insult! We're not special and in need of protection.

Hetty58
Most of the time, I agree with your first paragraph.
There is no assumption that all women are, somehow, vulnerable, frail and weak.

There are times when women are vulnerable, and frail
e.g. when faced with

male violence , e.g. attacks on J.K.R, or the rape of an elderly woman in a hospital,

male cheats, e.g. Liar Thomas who needs to race against females if he wants to win,

or male liars, who, as TW turn up when a female attendant has been requested
or claim to be lesbians and then accuse real lesbians of transphobia when they reject their advances

But the worst aspect is when the males, TW or not, are encouraged to do those things by females as they are on here.

That makes it even more probable that we might be in need of protection.