Anyone just watched Mr Bates v the Post Office? *GNHQ tweaked the title*

I don't know why I am even shocked. That poor woman!

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68857142

Late I know, but watched it today, a fine use of media, well done ITV.

Looks like the Post Office have been fiddling their taxes as well to the tune of millions.

There should be a thorough examination of bonuses and incentives to prosecute.

At the lower level it seems that "investigators" were paid for prosecutions, but it is more important that the bonuses awarded to highly paid executives should be scrutinised.

I'd like to know who gave instructions to the "helpline" staff to tell each postmaster "you are the only one who's had any problem with Horizon"

This blatant lie was repeated over and over again and so someone must have ordered the call centre staff to say this, knowing it was untrue

I think any primary legislation should annul any PO nondisclosure orders so that the victims could talk to the media and sue.

TerriBull

I agree, that £600,000 depending on how individual victims have been affected, in some cases especially where custodial sentences were applied, seems less than adequate.

In the series the widow of the man who stepped out in front of the bus, was given 24 hours to accept some sort of compensatory offer and if, I remember rightly, forced to sign a grubby non disclosure agreement, thus exonerating the PO from any liability. At times it seemed the poor victims were dealing with the mafia rather than a previously respected public body.

👏👏👏

Apologies Chestnut! I came across this just now myself.
Scary isn’t it?
“Pay peanuts and get monkeys” comes to mind.

In the 1990s the government invited companies to bid to computerise the Post Office. The Horizon bid came bottom in 7 out of 11 categories according to a National Audit Office report. But it was the cheapest.

OurKid1

I can't understand why, given that quite a few of the Postmasters/mistresses have paid back money which wasn't actually owed, that the auditors didn't find a discrepancy i.e. too much money in the PO coffers.

The short answer to Where Did All The Money Go is that it was either disappearing out of branches due to customer fraud or staff theft or repeated mistakes benefitting a customer OR it was disappearing out of ancillary (IT and non IT) Post Office (and non-Post Office) systems due to fraud, mistakes outside the branch and non-Horizon computer error OR it was disappearing out of Subpostmaster pockets and into the Post Office’s bottom line due to Horizon-generated discrepancies which showed up in Subpostmaster branch accounts.

It is important to remember the Post Office had no real control over its internal accounting systems for the duration of its Horizon-related prosecution spree (cf the 2013 Detica report) and so it didn’t know where money was going, nor could it properly account for where it came from. Suggesting that double-entry accounting would have revealed an obvious positive entry corresponding to an obvious negative entry assumes the Post Office systems worked and the people operating them knew what they were doing. They didn’t, and even if they did, they were not going to give any visibility of them to Subpostmasters or their legal representatives.

^The really, really short answer is that any money the Post Office was credited which it couldn’t make sense of ended up one of many internal suspense accounts^.

^It is therefore perfectly likely that the Post Office took money which rightfully belonged to its Subpostmasters and used it to bolster its bottom line. This was part-admitted by Post Office CEO Nick Read in a parliamentary committee meeting in January 2021:^

Chair: But you have to do a profit and loss account, do you not, Mr Read, with money coming in and money going out? If victims were putting money into the Post Office, surely you know that money came in from somewhere. Did it just go to your bottom line?
Nick Read: It went into a general suspense account.

What Mr Read didn’t tell the Committee was that after three years (according to one source I have spoken to), if entries in the suspense account were not identified and/or claimed, the cash was swept into the Post Office’s P&L account and counted as profit. Trebles on the back of Subpostmaster misery all round.

www.postofficescandal.uk/post/podcast-where-did-all-the-money-go/

I can't understand why, given that quite a few of the Postmasters/mistresses have paid back money which wasn't actually owed, that the auditors didn't find a discrepancy i.e. too much money in the PO coffers.

Thanks Grantanow

And I commend this article and most of the reader comments from The Conversation:

theconversation.com/post-office-scandal-what-the-lack-of-action-tells-you-about-britains-polarised-politics-220958?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20for%20January%2012%202024%20-%202846828857&utm_content=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20for%20January%2012%202024%20-%202846828857+CID_6675fbfd2d8a9c90f1c646f31141f111&utm_source=campaign_monitor_uk&utm_term=Post%20Office%20scandal%20what%20the%20lack%20of%20action%20tells%20you%20about%20Britains%20polarised%20politics

Google 'fujitsu donation Tory Party' for some interesting articles about links between the two. I see there is a BBC article on the News website explaining at length how the PO tried to suppress a Panorama about Horizon including allegations that expert interviewees were threatened with legal action.

i wouldnt be surprised if some senior/procurement bods at PO trousered large amounts of dosh/ inducements from Fujitsu for choosing them.
That would be the icing on the cake.

The whole scandal is truly jaw droppingly shocking.

Just spotted this on another website so I'm quoting what someone else said:

Something that I found interesting was that when The Post Office asked for bids for a new computer system, the Horizon system failed on 7 out of 11 things they asked for....but it was the cheapest!

Once again, failure is rewarded which seems to be the way things are done today.

Wheniwasyourage

Just finished watching on catch-up last night. The whole thing is horrifying! What really got me is the way people were told that there was nobody else having the same problem. Not just a lie, but a cruel lie. I’ve signed the petition about Fujitsu.

Good grief, don't you realise Mr Bradford only meant that nobody in that particular sub office had had problems. What's more, as he wasn't told that there were problems with Horizon from the top, he didn't need to investigate that or disclose that there were other people saying that as part of their defence. 🙄

What a way to run a railroad.

Stephen Bradshaw signed his witness statement. That’s entirely his responsibility. It’s not good enough to try and slither out of responsibility.
Lawyers give advice to their clients, they also give advice as to the likely outcome if a case goes to Court, they may also advice on the best way to,prepare a case. Even in the legal department did prepare Bradshaw’s statement(s) he would be expected to read them and correct anything he wasn’t happy with before signing it.

Surely it must be perjury to prosecute someone on the basis of a witness statement that you didn't write?

This is one of the major issues that arose by allowing the Post Office to be
- the alleged "victim" of fraud
- yet also the financial beneficiary as the fake losses were not really losses at all and this money that couldn't be traced by the system to a sub-post office were placed into suspense accounts and then later taken by the Post Office as "profits"
- the criminal investigator of the "thefts" they had suffered
- the prosecutor - with bonuses to staff for successful prosecutions

Exactly trying to get out of any responsibility. He was investigating fraud. He’s trying to say he didn’t know what he was doing.

Iam64

I’ve heard some of the inquiry today, questioning of Stephen Bradshaw who was employed by the Post Office since 1978 . He investigated the post office/horizon scandal.

He did not impress me in any way. He seemed to take no responsibility for anything. He wasn’t told by senior staff about problems with Horizon, he claimed not to be technically minded, when pushed on the statements he submitted he said the lawyers wrote them.

He was terrible. Came across as totally unprofessional in the way that the security department conducted its investigations. He even admitted to the inquiry that he did not write his own "witness statements" in the criminal cases that were prosecuted on the basis of his "investigations" but claims he merely signed statements from the Post Office's lawyers.

My public service employer switched to Fujitsu - the it system was simply dreadful. One example of many -I’m finished and saved a 40 page report. It disappeared from my screen. Phoned Fujitsu support - yes of course I’d switched off and logged in again, result - entire report lost and needing re-written. Try telling a High court judge the computer ate your homework

More of what you are unlikely to find in your right-wing press.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU0qo8P2Y48

This is the latest from The New Statesman about Fujitsu, outsourcing and much more. As always, knowledgeable and we'll researched.

Delila

I hear rumbles of discontent that a universal finding of innocence will include those few who, allegedly, did actually defraud the Post Office. My concern is that the innocent majority might therefore always feel that a cloud of suspicion lingers over them.

I hope this will not be the case - they’re entitled to feel that they’ve been completely exonerated.

That is why I think they should NOT have to sign a statement of innocence and why they should all receive an honour at a well publicised local ceremony.

Just finished watching on catch-up last night. The whole thing is horrifying! What really got me is the way people were told that there was nobody else having the same problem. Not just a lie, but a cruel lie. I’ve signed the petition about Fujitsu.

I agree, Cold, but I'm not sure what their position is in view of the fact that they didn't do the initial development. I might be completely on the wrong track...