Education versus money

Back in the 60s my Father worked in the Space Research Dept at UCL. The academics then were extremely well educated in terms of their speciality but they had little knowledge of other subjects/topics, especially the arts. I have a vague memory of suggestions that scientists in particular should learn other subjects.

It is necessary for many employees at a high level to be able to communicate with people from other organisations, often in a social setting, on a number of topics.

Casdon

Some of the least ‘educated’ people even if highly intelligent are those who specialise early in one specific subject and pursue that to the exclusion of others, because they often don’t have a broad general knowledge. Well educated is not to do with IQ, degree or profession, it’s about having a knowledge and understanding of a broad range of subjects. I always think quizzes are very revealing.

I agree.

A friend's son is extremely clever, specialised in history going from A levels to Oxford, now at another university as Professor. He has never left academia.
I really could not decribe him, at 50, as a well-rounded individual with all-round knowledge of the world in general.

Drama

Whilst not everyone may become a household name like Judi Dench or Hugh Bonneville, I must take issue with the denigrating of drama at degree level at university or diplomas at drama school and calling it an easy option. Entry requirements are high (probably AAB at least) and the courses usually include another academic subject too.

There are many museums and art galleries in the UK whose curators and directors have started out with art degrees

Furthermore, Britain s one of the best "suppliers" of musicians and actors

Yes, I agree.
There is quite a lot of misinformation regarding degrees and career paths.

For instance, A Media Studies degree is different from a Media Arts degree which can lead to a variety of interesting and well-paid careers in the Arts and Arts Technology world.

Katie59

NotSpaghetti

Germanshepherdsmum

Some degrees are a waste of the students’ time and money.

Which ones?

Those with a very loose course content, low entry qualification and no career path following. Media studies, Art, Drama, Fashion, Animal Care, many more, you are highly unlikely to get graduate work in any of those. Art in particular you need talent which you won’t learn at university, avoiding starvation will be a challenge.

Art and fashion degrees can lead to a variety of careers. I don't know whether it's the case now but at one time the designers in the German car manufacturers were Brits. There are many fashion graduates working in the international fashion houses and some set up their own design companies.

Taylor Swift was recently photographed in New York wearing a dress that cost £58 from a small Scottish fashion house called Little Lies. TS was photographed, the pix ended up on Twitter and the the dress sold out almost immediately. This is not the first time this has happened - often to small fashion houses..

The designer of Harry Styles multi coloured cardigan, Jonathan Anderson founded his company in 2008. It is not only a very successful company but is now creative director of Loewe and a trustee of the V & A. Not bad going for someone who graduated from the London College of Fashion in 2005.

There are many museums and art galleries in the UK whose curators and directors have started out with art degrees.

Furthermore, Britain s one of the best "suppliers" of musicians and actors.

You really should not denigrate the degrees that you mentioned.

My point is that most do not go to university and become a free thinker, you use you education to impose company policies on others, that is the same in Education, Health, Police, or any business. If you are an accountant you learn an established system being creative can get you in jail, nursing was my profession and you had some leeway at the start, now a nurse has a set script and you will get sacked for any variation.

If you want to have control of your life and be creative become self employed an entrepreneur

Katie59

Doodledog

Exactly. The idea that a degree should lead directly to a job or is a waste of money is very short-sighted, and pushing to restrict access or build in a lower tier is elitism at its most obvious.

On the other hand why waste 3 years and run up debt of £50k when you could train for a career that would enable you to pay the rent.

I think the reasons why people might want to do that have been covered in this thread.

Education for educations sake should be a progressive thing. I think that is all the chocolatelovinggran means

Chocolatelovinggran

The purpose of a university course, in most cases, is not about the profession you espouse later, surely? It's about creating a critical thinker, an analytical mind, a person who can bring rigour to assessment. This should, hopefully, create a better society which is clear eyed about the world in which we live. It's not for nothing that dictators close higher education establishments pretty swiftly once they're in power ( except for certain engineering courses, obviously- no point in dictatorship without weaponry)

So you train a student to be an analytical mind, a critical thinker for a repetitive job that requires them to work within strict guidelines.

A teacher or a nurse has virtually no freedom of input in their job, you carry out whatever activity according to set procedure, in some cases to a set script. Only when you get to the very top do you have any influence in policy. You are kidding yourself if you think differently.

Doodledog

Exactly. The idea that a degree should lead directly to a job or is a waste of money is very short-sighted, and pushing to restrict access or build in a lower tier is elitism at its most obvious.

On the other hand why waste 3 years and run up debt of £50k when you could train for a career that would enable you to pay the rent.

Exactly. The idea that a degree should lead directly to a job or is a waste of money is very short-sighted, and pushing to restrict access or build in a lower tier is elitism at its most obvious.

Wonderfully well said Chocolatelovinggran, and why would we not want this for society.

The purpose of a university course, in most cases, is not about the profession you espouse later, surely? It's about creating a critical thinker, an analytical mind, a person who can bring rigour to assessment. This should, hopefully, create a better society which is clear eyed about the world in which we live. It's not for nothing that dictators close higher education establishments pretty swiftly once they're in power ( except for certain engineering courses, obviously- no point in dictatorship without weaponry)

AngieP what makes you think they have wasted their degree?

This idea of "wasting" is absurd I feel. A degree is not like (say) foodstuff which obviouslycan be wasted... You carry your degrees with you forever. You will be forever changed by it.
It becomes part of who you are.

I’d say those making the most money here are definitely tradies- plumbers, electricians and builders . More than doctors and lawyers in some cases. They are very short of country GPs, probably because they don’t pay them enough. Doctors have to study for many, many years and rack up massive debts - and they wonder why there is a shortage!

Agreed, Norah.

Doodledog There hasn't been a move away from students taking technical subjects at degree level, or a decline in standards as a result of the 1992 changes. Yes, a university degree is less 'valuable' as more people have them, so those who see it as a passport to a well-paid job for life will be disappointed.

Graduates now have to compete to get jobs that used to be considered a right, which is no bad thing, IMO

Less snobby attitudes and inbuilt elitism - what's not to like?

Having a job you enjoy, that’s happiness.

Yes, things have changed in the last few decades! It was in 1992 when poly's (which were not technical colleges, but taught a wide range of subjects to graduate level) became universities. The change was not as radical as many seem to think - it meant that they could award their own degrees, and that more people became university graduates instead of polytechnic ones, but otherwise things continued much as before. These days many 'new universities' do very well in league tables, and some go head to head with old ones when it comes to research projects and funding.

There hasn't been a move away from students taking technical subjects at degree level, or a decline in standards as a result of the 1992 changes. Yes, a university degree is less 'valuable' as more people have them, so those who see it as a passport to a well-paid job for life will be disappointed. Graduates now have to compete to get jobs that used to be considered a right, which is no bad thing, IMO.

If that is the case Glorianny things have changed drastically in the last few decades.

These sandwich courses and blended courses were very much the area where those who had struggled at school or gone astray got their feet back on a career path.

My department used to take these students, most from polys, and certainly state schools. They had usually done well at O level, lost their way at A level and were doggedly making up for lost time.

I think these only go to the really high achievers and I think they are promoted most in Independent schools.

Ah, they are different from the ones I'm talking about, which are designed for those already in work, and are to some extent replacing day release. Typically students complete a portfolio showing how their experience matches the learning outcomes of the programme, and the university works with the employer to ensure that the student has the opportunities to plug any gaps, and set assignments that can be completed by carrying out live projects in the workplace, so it's a 'win win' outcome.

Doodledog

Callistemon21

Glorianny

There are companies which have students who are employees and attend university to do a degree. There are also companies who fund students to do degree on the understanding they will work for them when they graduate. These degree courses are vastly oversubscribed and only the most brilliant students are accepted. Understandably as they graduate without debt.

Yes, places are few and far between.

Many of these are the blended learning course I mentioned. They allow people without traditional qualifications to get recognition for what they are doing at work, and yes, many are in Engineering-related disciplines. Old fashioned day-release and sandwich degrees still exist, but are thinner on the ground than they used to be, possibly because more young people start their working lives with degrees nowadays, so there will be fewer takers.

I am in favour of having as many possible routes into education as possible, so that people don't have doors closed to them in the way they used to. I don't think that having a two (or more) tier system is the way forward though. All that does is continue the snobbery and elitism that held back so many people in the past, and wastes a lot of talent that would benefit the country as a whole.

No these are sponsored degree courses aimed at students straight out of school. They are heavily over subscribed. There's a leaflet for schools to hand out www.ucas.com/file/301201/download?token=h5NNR0bR

Callistemon21

Glorianny

There are companies which have students who are employees and attend university to do a degree. There are also companies who fund students to do degree on the understanding they will work for them when they graduate. These degree courses are vastly oversubscribed and only the most brilliant students are accepted. Understandably as they graduate without debt.

Yes, places are few and far between.

Many of these are the blended learning course I mentioned. They allow people without traditional qualifications to get recognition for what they are doing at work, and yes, many are in Engineering-related disciplines. Old fashioned day-release and sandwich degrees still exist, but are thinner on the ground than they used to be, possibly because more young people start their working lives with degrees nowadays, so there will be fewer takers.

I am in favour of having as many possible routes into education as possible, so that people don't have doors closed to them in the way they used to. I don't think that having a two (or more) tier system is the way forward though. All that does is continue the snobbery and elitism that held back so many people in the past, and wastes a lot of talent that would benefit the country as a whole.

People who make the most money are people who run their own business.

For example an emergency plumber, charged me £180 for an hour which has to be paid in cash, and he received three other calls when it was 7pm at night.

With so many graduates with degrees, employers now expect a degree + experience for entry level positions. Catch 22, without a job how can a new graduate gain work experience?

That’s when having middle class parents really help because the parents will bankroll their AC for a paid or unpaid internship and use their connections to make sure their AC get that work experience.

The same goes with apprenticeship. At £5.28 /hr at 19, you need help from your parents if you want to do an apprenticeship which required moving away from home.