Life After Death - Mediums, Ghosts, Heaven or Nothing?

Skye wote:

"As God is spirit, it’s obvious that ‘Son of God’ isn’t referring to a biological relationship. Jesus was saying that he is God as well as man. He is the same kind of being as God the Father as well as the same kind of being as other human beings. He has a dual nature, both God and man."

This is a doctrine that was decided at the council of Nicea about three hundred years after Jesus died,

Jesus was son of the God of the Jewish religion .Jesus was a faithful Jew, and a progressive one. I am a daughter of the scientific enlightenment and I want the teachings of Jesus to be taught for post enlightenment people.

Where this connects with the dangers of beliefs in ghosts and such is that spirits are described as if they were separable from physical bodies. This is not the case, there are no separable spirits , and churches are right to modernise certain doctrines . It's also true that people in Palestine at the time of Jesus were as natural and real as are people today.

Literal Biblical interpretation is superstition.

I find the little clips on youtube of toddlers speaking to (deceased) granny or grandad difficult to explain away.

There are some that are caught on baby monitors....

PS CS Lewis was a very clever author .However he is not the only writer who is good at stories that include gods and God.

Skye, you certainly know the Scrptures better than me!

Your quite from Daniel is interesting, as "son of man " means what I take it to mean, that Jesus was a man.

As a Christian you probably believe in miracles when God intervenes in this world of time, and sorrow.

I prefer to seek probable explanations before I believe in direct interventions from God. don't believe in that sort of God. Same with me and ghosts and other paranormal events: I seek natural explanations before I believe ghost stories.

Caleo

Skye, thank you for your reply.
'son of God' and 'son of man' are phrases like ' daughter of the Church' or 'son of Scotland' or 'daughter of mankind'. These phrases are not biologically true but are true inasmuch as they express devotion or allegiance. To this day Jews are renowned for poetic and humorous turns of phrase . Surely one cannot believe that Jesus is a biological son of God!

The raising of Lazarus story is more likely to refer to a ritual similar to born - again and similar rebirth rituals than to a dead body becoming alive again.

Again, Jesus was so inspiring that he may have brought the will to live to a man who was suffering from deep depression.

The raising of Lazarus story is more likely to refer to a ritual similar to born - again and similar rebirth rituals than to a dead body becoming alive again.

Again, Jesus was so inspiring that he may have brought the will to live to a man who was suffering from deep depression.

I think you are mixing up the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16.19-31 with the account of the raising of Lazarus from the dead in John 11.38-44. They are two different Lazaruses.

I would say, though, that in the story of the raising of Lazarus, considering that when Jesus says ‘Take away the stone’ from Lazarus’ tomb, Lazarus’s sister says, ‘But, Lord… by this time there is a bad odour, for he has been there four days’, it is a strange reading of the text to say that Lazarus was just badly depressed.

C S Lewis, who was a Cambridge professor of English Literature, said of the Gospels:

‘I have been reading poems, romances, vision literature, legends, and myths all my life. I know what they are like. I know none of them are like this. Of this text, there are only two possible views. Either this is reportage…or else, some unknown writer…without known predecessors or successors, suddenly anticipated the whole technique of modern novelistic, realistic narrative…. The reader who doesn’t see this has simply not learned how to read’.

- C S Lewis,Christian Reflections

‘Reportage: the factual, journalistic presentation of an account in a book or other text.’
- Oxford Languages

I agree with him.

Caleo

Skye, thank you for your reply.
'son of God' and 'son of man' are phrases like ' daughter of the Church' or 'son of Scotland' or 'daughter of mankind'. These phrases are not biologically true but are true inasmuch as they express devotion or allegiance. To this day Jews are renowned for poetic and humorous turns of phrase . Surely one cannot believe that Jesus is a biological son of God!

The raising of Lazarus story is more likely to refer to a ritual similar to born - again and similar rebirth rituals than to a dead body becoming alive again.

Again, Jesus was so inspiring that he may have brought the will to live to a man who was suffering from deep depression.

Thank you, Caleo. ‘Son of Man’ had a particular meaning to Jews who knew their Scriptures and a particular prophecy of Daniel.

‘In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshipped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.’
- Daniel 7.13-14

Jesus quotes some of this prophecy when he says to the high priest in Mark 14:62:

‘… you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.’

He also quotes it in Matthew 24.30.

We can see that it was in the sense of this prophecy that he was using the phrase ‘Son of Man’. He was saying that he would be worshipped and his kingdom would never be destroyed.

‘Son of God’ had more than one meaning, but if you look at the parable of the tenants in Mark 12 you will see how Jesus was using it, to mean that he had a unique relationship with God the Father which no one else had.

As God is spirit, it’s obvious that ‘Son of God’ isn’t referring to a biological relationship. Jesus was saying that he is God as well as man. He is the same kind of being as God the Father as well as the same kind of being as other human beings. He has a dual nature, both God and man.

Skye, thank you for your reply.
'son of God' and 'son of man' are phrases like ' daughter of the Church' or 'son of Scotland' or 'daughter of mankind'. These phrases are not biologically true but are true inasmuch as they express devotion or allegiance. To this day Jews are renowned for poetic and humorous turns of phrase . Surely one cannot believe that Jesus is a biological son of God!

The raising of Lazarus story is more likely to refer to a ritual similar to born - again and similar rebirth rituals than to a dead body becoming alive again.

Again, Jesus was so inspiring that he may have brought the will to live to a man who was suffering from deep depression.

My elderly neighbour is a widower, and is in a RH. He is a Jehovah's Witness, and his belief is that at the end of days, only Witnesses will be saved by Jehovah, they will continue to live on the earth in complete happiness and harmony. He is very impatient for this to happen. He also believes that his wife will return and that they will continue happily with their lives.

What worries me about an afterlife is that we might meet people we would rather never see again . I have in mind an aunt who caused so much family trouble and my father who never cared a jot about me . They might have turned into lovely people but who knows. What if your DH had a previous wife and they were both there when you arrived.

I had an uncle, of Anglo-Indian heritage, who said that a cousin of mine, only a few years older than me, was an ‘old soul’. She was truly a lovely person, but died quite unexpectedly, at only 40.

I tend to think that after death we might exist in the now as time and space will not apply. I know this maybe a strange thought and I do believe in god so it is sort of comforting to think that we all could be in god's presence for eternity with no past or present to concern us. Anyone else have strange thoughts like mine?

*warned against

Caleo

Did Jesus of Nazareth claim to be God, or was the Holy Trinity a later theological idea which was man -made?
At no point did Jesus of Nazareth want people to be mystified Indeed his parables are rational and make no mention of woo woo stuff, but on the contrary tell important moral truths from the point of view of simple country folk.

The Church is justified in condemning belief in ghosts and things, because they are a silly diversion from real life problems which Jesus actually dealt with and lost his life for doing so.

The Church is justified in condemning belief in ghosts and things

I don’t think the Church of England condemns belief in ghosts as such. In decades of weekly churchgoing I have never come across this or read of it.

Seeking to contact the dead, or engaging in other occult activities, is certainly worned against. That’s not to say that people don’t have strange experiences, including when they aren’t seeking them. Some Christians think these are all caused by evil spirits; others think some are caused by evil spirits and some (possibly) by the spirits of the dead.

The churches certainly don’t condemn belief in evil spirits (demons). The existence of these is clearly taught in Scripture. Jesus said, ‘I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven’ (Luke 10.18).

This was just after his disciples told him, ‘Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.’ He said in reply, ‘I have given you authority over all the power of the enemy [Satan].’ (Luke 10.17-19.)

Incidentally, this also shows that Jesus thought of himself as more than an ordinary teacher or prophet. How could a mere mortal give them power over evil spiritual beings?

Caleo

Did Jesus of Nazareth claim to be God, or was the Holy Trinity a later theological idea which was man -made?
At no point did Jesus of Nazareth want people to be mystified Indeed his parables are rational and make no mention of woo woo stuff, but on the contrary tell important moral truths from the point of view of simple country folk.

The Church is justified in condemning belief in ghosts and things, because they are a silly diversion from real life problems which Jesus actually dealt with and lost his life for doing so.

his parables are rational and make no mention of woo woo stuff, but on the contrary tell important moral truths from the point of view of simple country folk.

Jesus affirmed the existence of life after death in a parable. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16.19–31), Jesus says:

‘…the beggar [Lazarus] died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, “Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire. But Abraham replied, “… between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot”.’

Jesus also gave many warnings about the existence of hell (e g Matthew 18.9).

Jesus’ parables often surprised and baffled the people who heard them, so that his disciples would come to him afterwards and ask him to explain them. E g Matthew 13.36, Mark 4.34. They tended to shake up people’s ideas and make them think.

Caleo

Did Jesus of Nazareth claim to be God, or was the Holy Trinity a later theological idea which was man -made?
At no point did Jesus of Nazareth want people to be mystified Indeed his parables are rational and make no mention of woo woo stuff, but on the contrary tell important moral truths from the point of view of simple country folk.

The Church is justified in condemning belief in ghosts and things, because they are a silly diversion from real life problems which Jesus actually dealt with and lost his life for doing so.

Did Jesus of Nazareth claim to be God, or was the Holy Trinity a later theological idea which was man-made?

Bible passages where Jesus claims to be God:

For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
- John 5.18

Jesus answered, ‘... I and the Father are one.’

Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’

‘We are not stoning you for any good work,’ they replied, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’
- John 10.30-33

Jesus answered: ‘Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.'
- John 14.9

In the parable of the tenants (Mark 12.1-11, also in Matthew and Luke), Jesus speaks of himself as being in a unique relationship with God the Father as his son, unlike the other prophets. In this parable,

- the vineyard represents Israel
- the vineyard owner represents God the Father
- the vineyard tenants represent the Jewish religious leaders (to whom Jesus was speaking at the time)
- the owner’s servants represent the prophets
- the owner’s son represents Jesus.

Jesus also made indirect claims to be God, for example:

- by saying he had the authority to forgive sins, which the Jews considered to belong only to God (Matthew 9.6)
- by calling himself the Son of Man, a divine figure prophesied in Daniel 7.13–14 (e g in Matthew 25.31)
- and by saying that he will sit as judge when he comes in his glory (Matthew 25.31–46).

As I wrote above, Jesus is called God in two separate New Testament letters (2 Peter and Titus), written probably 30–35 years after he died. This is like 1989 to the 1990s to us. There was not time for a 'later theological idea' to have grown up by then. Eye-witnesses to the life of Jesus were still alive and could have contradicted the idea as unrealistic, if they had wanted to.

Sorry - the year after the flowers were again RED.

Here is a heartwarming story. A man I know related that his own father had been seriously ill in hospital at the time the man's wife was expecting their first child. When visiting the father's bedside the sick man asked his son to take a large bunch of white roses to his daughter-in-law upon the child's birth should he be unable to do so himself. The son promised. The father died. The child was born but with serious complications. It was such a harrowing time for the son that he forgot his promise to the father. On the terrace of this family there is a rose bush. Its flowers are red. But that month of May they all flowered white and the son remembered his forgotten vow to his father. Their gardener declared it was impossible for a rose shrub to change colour like that. The year after, the flowers were again white.

Did Jesus of Nazareth claim to be God, or was the Holy Trinity a later theological idea which was man -made?
At no point did Jesus of Nazareth want people to be mystified Indeed his parables are rational and make no mention of woo woo stuff, but on the contrary tell important moral truths from the point of view of simple country folk.

The Church is justified in condemning belief in ghosts and things, because they are a silly diversion from real life problems which Jesus actually dealt with and lost his life for doing so.

Madeinyorkshire so sorry to hear about your DD, hope you & your family are OK xx

As a child I would have that Deja-vu a lot. When my dad died, my mum had been in a care home for about a year. We never thought my dad would pass before her, but he did. When I went to visit my mum to tell her her H had died, a few of the staff told me that my dad, whom they all knew well as he visited every day, had been tapping on my mum's window!

Last May I unfortunately found my neighbour dead at the bottom of his stairs, I was so upset about it. Next day I was sitting in my armchair looking out into the garden, when a large like tear drop bright light, about the size of my hand, suddenly appeared on the floor by my chair. I looked around to see if it was a reflection from something, but no, never seen it before or since. It stayed about 1-2 minutes, I was transfixed. It suddenly went as quick as it had arrived, just sort of shot off. Around 5mins later there was a knock on the door, a florist with a big, beautiful bouquet of flowers in her hand. I said, 'they can't be for me', she said 'yes they are'. The card said from my neighbours D, thanking me for all I'd done. I said I didn't want to accept them as I hadn't saved my neighbour, he was dead! But I did accept the flowers, texting the D that she shouldn't have.

I've never seen a ghost and think I would be very frightened if I did. I do talk to my mother, who died many years ago but don't know if she can hear me or not. Sometimes, if someone in the family has problems or is ill, I ask her if she can help. Things usually work out OK anyway. Recently, I asked if she could help my sister, who was very ill in hospital, and strangely, I kept thinking 'Her time has come' over and over in my head. This is not what usually happens as I don't usually think of anything at all. My sister died in ICU.
Also strangely about 2 weeks before my sister went in hospital my DGC age 9 suddenly started crying and saying they didn't want to die at bedtime. Not a topic that had been discussed with them or mentioned at all. It took their mum a long time to settle them that night - again very unusual.
I have an open mind on the afterlife and ghosts but not totally convinced yet.

Sorry, that should say 2 Peter not 1 Peter. Wish there was an edit button.

same as most modern people I don't believe in miracles

On miracles, let me recommend Dr Craig Keener’s two-volume scholarly study, Miracles: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts, containing excellent evidence for the occurrence of miracles both in the past and the present.
www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0801039525?ref_=cm_sw_r_mwn_dp_Y5Z2P9A07HKPDXY60R34&language=en-GB&tag=gransnetforum-21

Or if anyone would like an easier read, there is Lee Strobel’s book The Case for Miracles (4.7 stars on Amazon).
amzn.eu/d/cZjIWC5

Lee Strobel was an award-winning journalist so his style is quite pacy. (He converted from atheism to Christianity after spending years examining the evidence.)

Caleo

Skye, thanks for your reply.

It would be unrealistic to expect most churchgoers to be theologians, and it is realistic to expect ministers of religion to be theologians, who also guide their flock as to how to interpret The Bible . Interpreting The Bible is no easy task.

I myself regard The Bible as literature. As such , it's immensely complicated.
The problem for well intentioned ministers of religion is to teach the congregation to the level of the least informed and also the best informed person persons present.

I respect the life and work of Jesus of Nazareth and same as most modern people I don't believe in miracles , so I would not be fit to understand The Bible unless I had previously had the appropriate general schooling.

You regard the Bible as literature, Caleo: I regard it as inspired by God. As such, its basic message – how to get right with God – is quite easy to understand.

You say you wouldn’t be fit to understand the Bible without the appropriate general schooling. I think you might be surprised if you tried. Quite a few people think they do have a reasonable understanding without a theology degree. (Incidentally, plenty of Church of England ministers do not have theology degrees either.)

It’s good to hear that you respect the life and work of Jesus. But then what do you make of his claim to be God? As C S Lewis points out, there are three possible responses to this claim:

1. Lunatic - he believed he was God and was mad
2. Liar - he didn’t believe he was God and was lying
3. Lord - he was and is God

From the records we have of Jesus’ life, in the Bible and outside it, there is no reason to think he was mad. There is reason, though, to think that he lived an exceptionally good life, so that a wild lie would be quite out of character. He is referred to as God in two of the New Testament letters (1 Peter and Titus), written probably by AD 65, showing that this claim was accepted early on and did not grow up as a legend later. This was only about 30 years after his death.

The remaining alternative is that his claim was true.

If someone doesn’t believe his claim, do they really respect him?

Skye, thanks for your reply.

It would be unrealistic to expect most churchgoers to be theologians, and it is realistic to expect ministers of religion to be theologians, who also guide their flock as to how to interpret The Bible . Interpreting The Bible is no easy task.

I myself regard The Bible as literature. As such , it's immensely complicated.
The problem for well intentioned ministers of religion is to teach the congregation to the level of the least informed and also the best informed person persons present.

I respect the life and work of Jesus of Nazareth and same as most modern people I don't believe in miracles , so I would not be fit to understand The Bible unless I had previously had the appropriate general schooling.

Caleo

Are ministers of religion supposed to educate their flocks, or not?

Why do you ask, Caleo?

Every Christian has a responsibility to read the Bible for him- or herself and do their own thinking in order to understand and apply it. It does say, ‘Love the Lord your God with all your mind’, as well as with all your heart, soul and strength (Mark 12.30).

In some churches people meet in small groups during the week to study the Bible, and discuss what the passage means and how to apply it in their lives. I do this. We use Bible commentaries, videos and study booklets to help us.

The minister has a responsibility to faithfully preach on the Bible, helping their congregation understand what it means and how to apply it, but they can’t do everything.