winter fuel payment and the government,

MissAdventure

If someone has a health reason for needing extra heat, they could apply for pip, or attendance allowance.
They should, because that is what it is meant to do.

Cover the extra costs caused by a long term illness or disability.

Not across the board, someone can have arthritis but not deemed bad enough for Pip or attendance allowance, but still feel very uncomfortable and in pain when it's cold. I have osteo arthritis and can cope because I put the heating on and refuse to be in pain, stiff and cold.
I drive, and put the heating on in the car, and when I walk, I treated myself to a very thick and warm coat.
The wfa would help with my heating costs, but I lost it due to getting the new state pension and having a occupational pension. Some pensioners who are just over the limit for PC are scared of putting the heating on. It really is not right or fair.

And yet, no means testing for handing out school breakfasts-and before school care whether parents can afford to pay for them or not.

Means-testing school breakfasts would cost a fortune. Children don't have means to test, so it would involve getting parents to declare their incomes and outgoings, which is never a 'fair' way to decide who is given money and who isn't. Quite apart from the expense and intrusiveness, lives are complicated, and having an apparently good income doesn't necessarily equate to having a good disposable one.

Should children be segregated by parental income anyway, with one 'set' getting breakfast and another not? I remember the 'free dinners' queue at school - it was very obvious who qualified. I'm sure teachers are less discriminatory nowadays, but a two-tier system is always going to be tricky to get right, and as with the WFA there will be people on the threshold of being able to claim.

If this government are saying they can’t afford to pay the WFA how would they pay all those billions to families or people of any age?

By only paying it to those who need it, instead of everyone over 66? Would it be billions? If so, we really need to wonder at a system that puts so many people in poverty in such a rich country. I would prefer to see bills lowered for all, but shareholders would doubtless complain about that. Whatever level of means-test is applied to WFA there will be people just above it, and usually because they have saved into a pension. No government will want to deter people from saving by penalising them if they have done so - it's counterproductive to encourage more people to claim benefits, but what is the point of saving if you are going to be worse off for doing so?

In time, automatic enrolment into workplace pensions should mean that fewer people are unable to pay energy bills when they retire. Rises in the minimum wage should ensure that no-one in work is in that position either, but I'm less confident about that, as too many people are more concerned about profits for employers than about employees.

I don’t know if it’s because of the increase in the cost of energy but all the young people are wearing oversized hoodies in the house at the moment. I was given one for Christmas that weighs a ton (it’s lined with Sherpa fleece and is very long). At first I wondered what on earth I was going to do with it but, whenever I put it on and sit on the sofa to watch tv I fall asleep, I’m so snug and warm (it’s also so heavy it probably works like a weighted blanket, too!). I do worry about my very frail neighbour and am going to see if she’d like one of my fleeces that I no longer wear because they’re a bit small on me ( they’re virtually unworn). I’ve never seen her wearing a fleece and she never seems to be wearing enough layers. I wonder if a lot of elderly people are the same.

If someone has a health reason for needing extra heat, they could apply for pip, or attendance allowance.
They should, because that is what it is meant to do.

Cover the extra costs caused by a long term illness or disability.

Gin

Sometimes I wonder if all those who on this platform so loudly deplore the withdrawal of WFP (other than for those receiving PC) are actually lacking in enough funds to pay their fuel bill. Could it be just a chance to have a political swipe at the Labour Party?
Most people know WTC was a badly thought out vote chasing benefit. Yes, it was a great help to those on low incomes but I would love to know what percentage was of those who really needed it.

Most people know WTC was a badly thought out vote chasing benefit.

So I ask myself why KS was so anti Sunak cancelling it when he was in opposition. I rewatch that clip frequently.

Means testing - OK, except for those on the cusp, who have been badly affected and also those a little above the cusp, who need their homes heated for health reasons and who are affected because of that.

And yet, no means testing for handing out school breakfasts-and before school care whether parents can afford to pay for them or not.

I’m not anti nutritious school breakfasts, but free, even if you can afford them (like not needing the WFP) does seem a bit strange.

Sometimes I wonder if all those who on this platform so loudly deplore the withdrawal of WFP (other than for those receiving PC) are actually lacking in enough funds to pay their fuel bill. Could it be just a chance to have a political swipe at the Labour Party?
Most people know WTC was a badly thought out vote chasing benefit. Yes, it was a great help to those on low incomes but I would love to know what percentage was of those who really needed it.

I have not made an assumption. You should not be penalised for being careful with your money. In this country so many people are.. Labour are making doubly sure of it!

I agree as well, that the WFA should not be paid to every pensioner, but that the income level should be set much higher. I feel the senior bus pass is a different matter though, as it’s been proved that every pound spent on it generates a lot more for the economy. That being the case, the government would be mad to abolish or means test it.

karmalady

The labour government will be counting the deaths due to cold, one by one and the `savings` will slowly add up. They will be smiling inwardly, that is how they will save money.

I don’t think this is true at all.

I still remember austerity where I was still working and year on year worse off.

Sawitch

I don’t think that all pensioners should get the WFA, but I do think that the qualifying income level should be set higher. I’m fortunate that I can afford to heat my home so I really don’t need it and it’s a waste of limited resources to give it to all pensioners. I used to give the money to my daughters who have young families. They struggle with rising costs and especially heating.
As an aside, my granddaughter’s bus pass to get her to school costs £500 a year. My daughter is a single parent and this is a huge amount for her to find so I pay for it. All pensioners get free bus passes regardless of income, perhaps this should also be means tested and available to children rather than wealthy pensioners?

I agree with you, it should be about need and not universal (both bus pass and WFA) but for goodness sake set the limit and criteria more realistically.

Doodledog

I would like to see the WFP reinstated, but given to everyone who ‘deserves’ it. That would include young people with families - people of all ages who can’t afford to put the heating on despite working (where they can, or when they could).

I don’t think it’s fair to give it based on age as opposed to need, and regardless of contributions.

👏👏👏👏👏

Oreo

Indigo8

madeleine45

because if we get cold enough we will die and then they wont have to pay us a pension or look after us in hospital or at home!!

I don't know where to start with your comment, assuming you are not being ironic, to say you are politically biased is an understatement.

But we’re all politically biased, and from what I read on this forum some more than others😁

Good point Oreo. It's all a question of degree. Perhaps I should have written 'extremely politically biased'.

The withdrawal of the universal Winter Fuel Payment and the unfairness to those on the “cliff edge” has been discussed at length. The only answer the new Government has for those people is to look at claiming help from the Household Support Fund which the Government has allocated another £421 million to. How local councils allocate HSF is at the discretion of the council and just adds another layer of complication for the most vulnerable but it’s worth looking at the claim criteria. CAB can help with that.

As others have said it is also worth asking your energy supplier how they can help. For example, Octopus, through OctoAssist, has allocated 30 million to help people struggling with heating bills.

On the positive side, energy prices have come down from the height of the crisis in 2022 and we can take action to protect outself from further increases in the medium term.

I keep a month-by-month, year-by-year record of my dual-fuel energy bills. My usage is pretty much the same year-on-year. I have a large house to heat. My November 2024 bill was £40 lower than November 2023 and my December 2024 bill was £80 lower than for December 2023 so that’s already £120 less over two months than for winter 2023.

For months, Martin Lewis has been telling people to get off the price cap and fix. I did so just before the cap increased on October 1 so I am also protected from the January 1 increase and any further increases until next autumn.

For the calendar year 2024, my bills were £220 lower compared to 2023. I have lost £200 WFP but the reduction in energy prices means I am not worse off compared to last year.

My heating is currently off and only on in the early morning and late afternoon.

We are paying about one fifth of our total income to Eon. No WFA and no other help. Eon have a scheme to help but it is only available to those on pension credit.

I couldn't possibly put how I really feel about the Labour government.

Indigo8

madeleine45

because if we get cold enough we will die and then they wont have to pay us a pension or look after us in hospital or at home!!

I don't know where to start with your comment, assuming you are not being ironic, to say you are politically biased is an understatement.

But we’re all politically biased, and from what I read on this forum some more than others😁

Doodledog

I would like to see the WFP reinstated, but given to everyone who ‘deserves’ it. That would include young people with families - people of all ages who can’t afford to put the heating on despite working (where they can, or when they could).

I don’t think it’s fair to give it based on age as opposed to need, and regardless of contributions.

Don’t agree with that. Families with children already get support for the children and if their working incomes are low get topped up with pension credit.Parents who work are out of the house most of the day and the kids at school.Pensioners are home most of the day.
If this government are saying they can’t afford to pay the WFA how would they pay all those billions to families or people of any age?

travelsafar

This very subject was being discussed on the radio yesterday and a lady suggested that everyone bee put on the higher rate of state pension eradicating the need for WFP and PC.
It would also cut down on the administration costs involved with those two benefits.
Could it really be as simple as that??

By higher rate of state pension do you mean the new rate? If so I disagree, I get more on the old state pension as does my husband due to SERPS/S2P. I don't see why I should lose out when everyone on the old pension had the option to be contracted in or out and I was contracted in and lost the benefit of a contribution to a personal/work pension so I would not be happy to lose what I am entitled to.

karmalady

The labour government will be counting the deaths due to cold, one by one and the `savings` will slowly add up. They will be smiling inwardly, that is how they will save money.

Though it was marginally more measured than this one…

madeleine45

because if we get cold enough we will die and then they wont have to pay us a pension or look after us in hospital or at home!!

I don't know where to start with your comment, assuming you are not being ironic, to say you are politically biased is an understatement.

I don’t think that all pensioners should get the WFA, but I do think that the qualifying income level should be set higher. I’m fortunate that I can afford to heat my home so I really don’t need it and it’s a waste of limited resources to give it to all pensioners. I used to give the money to my daughters who have young families. They struggle with rising costs and especially heating.
As an aside, my granddaughter’s bus pass to get her to school costs £500 a year. My daughter is a single parent and this is a huge amount for her to find so I pay for it. All pensioners get free bus passes regardless of income, perhaps this should also be means tested and available to children rather than wealthy pensioners?

British Gas has an Energy Support Fund for those on low incomes and pensioners. There are grants available. It is all explained on the website, might be worth BG customers looking into it.

What would the government and energy companies do if all the people who need WFP and have been denied it just keep their heating up at steady 21 degrees and then only pay what they can when the bills arrive?
If enough people do that they will have to reconsider their strategies and prices.. they can hardly be seen to be cutting off old peoples energy supplies,,

And I agree with Doodledog we should also include all needy younger people.. some direct action is called for..

Surely the answer is to improve the position of everyone who has caring responsibilities and is therefore unable to fund their own private pension? We should recognise the value they add to our society and how much they save the state by enhancing their state pension with an added carer's retirement allowance. We should be targeting money to those who need it and paying a universal benefit like WFP wasn't sensibly targeting it. I'd like to see those who have less being given more and those of us who have more, paying more! To those who say they would be being penalised for being prudent, I would say if you don't have spare cash in the first place, you can't save it.

Our thermostat is set at 16° overnight, at 18° in parts of the day when we are on the move, doing housework or whatever.
Sitting down in the evening, 18° is not warm enough.
For my elderly neighbour, by herself, 18° is not warm enough.
For the last few years, we’ve both have Oodies to help keep us warm.
Perhaps MPs should do that instead of claiming heating expenses for their offices.

Please don’t speak for me, Mt61. I can speak for myself, and in any case you are misinterpreting my views.

I don’t want anyone to die - young or old - and would rather see help go to a
young person in need than an older one who is not in need.

I am not a fan of means-tested benefits either love0c, but perhaps for different reasons from yours. The problem with giving money for a specific purpose to everyone over pension age, however, is that this excludes those with the same needs in other age groups, including babies and children, and gives it (in many cases) to those on good incomes. Increasing pensions would be better, as pensions are contribution-based so not handouts, however they are framed nowadays.

The sooner pension credit is abolished (and with it the unfairness of making those with small occupational pensions worse off than those without) the better.
I agree that those with incomes just above PC are not well off, but that brings us back to the morality of means-tests.

I wouldn’t have privatised energy in the first place - IMO it is very wrong that people are profiting from high bills which others can’t afford to pay. The way to deal with that would be to renationalise and keep prices down so that more people can afford them. That way, there would be no need to prioritise some groups over others when it comes to handouts.

It’s more complicated than just giving money to people over 66, IMO.