One in four children start school in nappies

One of my gd’s started nursery class at school aged almost 3, and was frightened of going in the toilet. Teacher said ‘just put knickers on her’ . She soon as she saw all the other children using the toilet, it only took a couple of days before she was happy to go herself.

I don't think it's an Urban Myth but I'm not sure about the statistics.

Many years ago, probably over over 20, children were not allowed to start at a State school nursery without being toilet trained unless they had were children who had special needs.

Children were, of course, encouraged to use the little toilets and were helped and shown how to wash their hands (!) and there would be an occasional accident but the majority were trained.

That changed many years ago as it was deemed to be discriminatory.

It is also useful to note there are different types of nurseries - nursery classes attached to the school (part of the early years unit) and run by a teacher, and private nurseries where staffing is different.
I would say the cohort in nursery classes and reception classes has changed completely in the last 10 years or so.

buggerlugs11

Maybe one of the problems is that some children are starting school when they have only just turned 3 years old. A child born in August hast to start school in september.
This is because there is only one in-take per year. It was not always like this. Children used to start school in the term in which they were to five years old. There is a big difference between a child who is nearly five and one who is only just four.

They have to be 4 before starting in reception.
However, my DGD was only a couple of days past her 4th birthday when she started school.

Harris27

I’ve got four in nappies in pre school room at nursery. Yes they are starting school in nappies three if my children went in September in them. So it’s ok to change nappies in a nursery setting but not as a teacher?🤔

Yes, of course - it's completely different. Nursery staff are paid for childcare, which is not the same as teaching. Schoolchildren are there to learn, and needn't go to school until they are five (even though they are allowed places in the term before), so it's perfectly reasonable for schools to refuse to take under fives who are not toilet trained.

Teachers have to stay with the class even if they need to use the loo themselves, so who is supposed to change children who regularly soil themselves? It's not part of a teacher's job, but it is for a nursery nurse.

I was surprised to see carpets in the reception class but was assured by the janitor that he had a machine to deal with everything from paint to poop!
This was not a nursery and will have been 30 years ago.

The BBC this morning featured a school/ area which required parents to come into school if their children needed to have their nappy/ clothes changed. Parents resented this, of course.

The point was made about appropriate use of teachers’ time versus negligence of leaving a child in soiled clothing.

Of course, teachers are not allowed to blame poor parenting.

Someone from a children’s charity naturally favoured the child’s angle and said their clothing should be changed and parents should not be blamed for poor parenting.

I have no idea about statistics but it was evidently a serious enough problem in this school.

Leaving aside children with medical problems or special needs who are a separate situation, a difficulty arises if there are no TAs employed or if they are occupied with a particular child. Can a teacher leave 29 children unsupervised in order to take one child to the toilet?
Is it unreasonable to expect children to be clean and dry before starting school?

Harris27

I’ve got four in nappies in pre school room at nursery. Yes they are starting school in nappies three if my children went in September in them. So it’s ok to change nappies in a nursery setting but not as a teacher?🤔

Although pre-reading skills and arithmetic are often taught informally at pre-school, fluent reading and mathematics are taught more formally in infant school. The progress of the pupils is carefully monitored and assessed and the teacher is held responsible for maintaining standards in numeracy and literacy.

Time spent attending to incontinent pupils is time away from teaching essential skills. Teachers are not primarily child minders.

Cabbie21

The BBC this morning featured a school/ area which required parents to come into school if their children needed to have their nappy/ clothes changed. Parents resented this, of course.

The point was made about appropriate use of teachers’ time versus negligence of leaving a child in soiled clothing.

Of course, teachers are not allowed to blame poor parenting.

Someone from a children’s charity naturally favoured the child’s angle and said their clothing should be changed and parents should not be blamed for poor parenting.

I have no idea about statistics but it was evidently a serious enough problem in this school.

Leaving aside children with medical problems or special needs who are a separate situation, a difficulty arises if there are no TAs employed or if they are occupied with a particular child. Can a teacher leave 29 children unsupervised in order to take one child to the toilet?
Is it unreasonable to expect children to be clean and dry before starting school?

Lots of infants toilets are adjacent or even in the back of classrooms and most classes will also have an adult LSA

Doodledog

*Maybe one of the problems is that some children are starting school when they have only just turned 3 years old.*
Really? Surely that is nursery or playgroup?

Not school, not reception, but they maybe full time in a nursery attached to a school so many may count this as a school

I am aware of a nursery class who are using a similar system - requesting parents to come in and change their child, or offering reduced hours. I dont know of any reception classes with no TA ( I visit a number of schools per week) a number of receptions classes now need 2-3 TA 's because of the needs of children.

Disgusting lazy parents make me sick!

That's interesting Galaxy. So you are aware more than most of the change in attitudes.

When my DC were starting school, no child would have been in nappies unless they had special educational needs, and if there was an accident it would have been dealt with quickly and no blame attached but you knew it wasn't part of the teacher's job.

Cossy

Doodledog

Maybe one of the problems is that some children are starting school when they have only just turned 3 years old.
Really? Surely that is nursery or playgroup?

Not school, not reception, but they maybe full time in a nursery attached to a school so many may count this as a school

Yes, this is what I meant upthread. The journalist doesn't seem to know the difference between a nursery, a pre-reception class and a school.

To say that children are starting school still in nappies is not the same thing as saying nursery children, or even pre-reception ones are not toilet trained. Of course people who had children in the 60s wouldn't know any who went to school in nappies, because they were five years old. A nursery child who's just turned three is a very different kettle of fish.

Playgroups in the 70 s wouldn’t accept children in nappies. Luckily both of mine were toilet trained well before they were 2.
Those bulky towelling squares weren’t comfortable for them or nice to clean and wash for us and I was delighted to relegate the nappy bucket and the wooden spoon to the garden shed.

I don’t have GC but many of my friends do and they talk about child centred child rearing , regarding things like weaning and toilet training , where it’s done at the child’s pace , not the parents .
This might explain the high numbers .

I wonder whether the trend towards using child-minders might mean children aren't toilet-trained as quickly as they were when parents looked after their own kids and women tended not to go back to work until the kids were at school all day. It's bad enough dealing with your own kids' nappies (especially terry towelling ones!) but doing it for a houseful of other people's is probably even less appealing.

If age five is still the age that (by law) children have to start formal education in UK then any discussion about “children starting school” before that age is irrelevant isn’t it?

Do childminders not do toilet training? Genuine question. Both of my children (and my GS) went to nurseries from a very early age, so when we decided to start toilet training, they just carried on with it while the children were at nursery.

Granmarderby10

If age five is still the age that (by law) children have to start formal education in UK then any discussion about “children starting school” before that age is irrelevant isn’t it?

Where my DGC live, they have to start school in the September of the school year when they are going to be five. So they are 'Rising Fives'. Some will be five in the week they start school, others may not be five until the very end of thst school year, ie end of August so just about a year younger.

If they want to wait a year until they are just five, then they have to start school in Year 1 and miss Reception.

It is much too rigid.

Harris27

I’ve got four in nappies in pre school room at nursery. Yes they are starting school in nappies three if my children went in September in them. So it’s ok to change nappies in a nursery setting but not as a teacher?🤔

A qualified teacher is very different from a Nursery Nurse. In a Reception class there will be as many as 30 children, usually with a Nursery Nurse or more likely a Teaching Assistant, but not always. There is a curriculum to be delivered and a teacher cannot stop her/his lesson on for example Letters and Sounds, in order to change a nappy. There are unlikely to be proper facilities for nappy changing in a Reception classroom either.

Nursery classes have a higher ratio of staff to children - by law. Usually in a nursery each adult will have charge of a small group of children. That member of staff will be the key worker for her/his group. There will also be more opportunities for the children to engage in self chosen activities and that gives the key worker time to pop out to the nappy changing area to attend to a child who has wet or soiled themselves.

The role of a qualified teacher is different from that of a qualified Nursery Nurse, and they are both different from the role of a Teaching Assistant or Nursery Assistant. Higher Level Teaching Assistants have a different role again.

Granmarderby10

If age five is still the age that (by law) children have to start formal education in UK then any discussion about “children starting school” before that age is irrelevant isn’t it?

You are, of course, right G10 but, in my experience, most local authority schools are geared to parents sending their children in the September before they are five.

I don't think that teaching assistants should be responsible for dealing with persistently incontinent children either. Apart from the fact that they are there to assist the form teacher with the teaching (the clue is in the job title), most infant classes have around 30 pupils whereas nurseries have a ratio of one adult for every 8 children (10 if it under 4 hours).

...whereas nurseries have a ratio of one adult for every 8 children (10 if it under 4 hours).

It's one adult to 13 children if there is a graduate leader.
I went for a "stay and play" session at the school-based nursery one of my minded children attended.
There were 26 three/four year olds and two adults.

Every single teaching assistant I know is involved in managing children in nappies. As I say most reception classes have 2 - 3 children with additional needs, and that is a low estimate, many have many more.

My son went to the local playgroup (run privately by a group of mums) at age 3. One of the rules was that no child could be accepted if not toilet trained. This was late 80s. When he started primary school there were no children in nappies either.