The lives of women ....

M0nica

^The poem is also about how women (young women in particular) feel obliged to please men, adapt their lives around men, bear the brunt of contraception, make themselves attractive .......^

No they do not. I have never felt obliged to please men, it would never have occurred to my mother or grandmother to do so, so I wasn't taught to either.

My daughter is single, and always has been, she has lived in London, as have I, neither of us has ever felt constrained to get taxis and not walk. I would not walk down a dark alley or night, but then neither would DH or DS. There is a chance you could get mugged.

Women need to stop seeing themselves as victims all the time and start behaving like the adult confident women they say at the smetime as they wrap themselves in to that comfort blanket of victimhood.

at last a voice of reason..

The poem is also about how women (young women in particular) feel obliged to please men, adapt their lives around men, bear the brunt of contraception, make themselves attractive .......

No they do not. I have never felt obliged to please men, it would never have occurred to my mother or grandmother to do so, so I wasn't taught to either.

My daughter is single, and always has been, she has lived in London, as have I, neither of us has ever felt constrained to get taxis and not walk. I would not walk down a dark alley or night, but then neither would DH or DS. There is a chance you could get mugged.

Women need to stop seeing themselves as victims all the time and start behaving like the adult confident women they say at the smetime as they wrap themselves in to that comfort blanket of victimhood.

I either love or like all the men who are or have been part of my life but I despise men who harm women either physically or mentally.

I heard this last week. Having 4 daughters as well as 7 granddaughters ages 16-22 I found it disturbing and saddening to listen to. It feels like little has improved and maybe some things are even worse since I was a young woman.

I don’t hate men either, I’m surrounded by them

We know it's not all men, that hardly needs saying, but you can guarantee it will be a woman who leaps to state this. Galaxy mentions that shoplifting is much more prevalent amongst women but you'd better not hold your breath waiting for a man to indignantly declare 'not all women'.

JaneJudge

and in just a few posts we are back onto the lives of men

Yes. I wondered how long it would take.

I have a lovely husband and a wonderful son, as well as many male friends. I am not a man hater.

But when is it ever going to be possible to talk about women, and how women feel without someone asking 'what about the men'? Caring about women does not meant caring about men.

JaneJudge

and in just a few posts we are back onto the lives of men

Yes and we know that most men are decent and I'm sure most of us would count our DSs and GDSs as such but this is about women and how many of us feel.
I think women have been brainwashed to feel that all that is important about us is the way we look.
Also some men are wife beaters and predators.

As far as I am aware women shoplift at a much higher rate than men, as a woman I dont get upset if someone talks about this, I dont feel they are accusing me of being a shoplifter.

The poem does not say that all men are dangerous and require endless appeasement. It tells our daughters and granddaughters that such men exist- and they do.
Add into the mix the "incel" movement and the need to exercise caution continues.

and in just a few posts we are back onto the lives of men

I absolutely agree HPQ. Although the poem does mention the rapist in the bushes etc.

It is also about the way women grow up to believe that they must strive to look like some impossible air brushed, photo-shopped icon of womanhood.

How women still earn less than men do but have to spend out on cosmetics, sanitary wear and taxis.

I don't think this a bitter and twisted view; just realistic.

I think it is unfair to generalise about men all being violent towards women and/or sex pests but I don't think the poem sets out to do that.

If you generalised about ebezzlers usually being men (which statistically they are) you would not find a load of men and their defenders, saying but we/they are not like that.

OldFrill

There are many points, commenting on one doesn't mean you've missed all others.

No, but it does mean I was trying to start a discussion. Never mind

There are many points, commenting on one doesn't mean you've missed all others.

A very interesting poem, well considered. I think a lot of us on here may be missing some of her main points though; it is not just about the rapist in the bushes, the bad man on the streets, it is about domestic violence, unrealistic expectations of body size, sexual performance, etc., all the kinds of things promoted to young men by monsters such as Andrew Tate. It is about the lifelong misery of unrealistic diets, promoted by other women a lot of the time, it is about constantly judging ourselves against unattainable and unrealistic goals. It is about teaching your girls to be happy with themselves, to speak out for themselves, to value themselves.

To simply say that your sons and grandson don't act like that is true, but missing the point.

It is an interesting debate.

pascal30Perhaps you and your young female friends have not met anyone who has lived the life or had similar experiences that Caitlyn O'Ryan has.

Her poem certainly resonates with me and my DD.

What an angry, disillusioned young woman.. It certainly doesn't reflect all the young men I know from the art and buddhist world or from just meeting on the street.. Nor do my young female friends resonate with it..

I am unhappy with how girls are being told to view men as predators.

I agree. I have had conversations with my young GSs about holding their heads up high and not feeling they are labelled as threats, whilst at the same time reinforcing what is decent behaviour. The young men do feel this I know - but sadly there is truth behind it. Women do adapt their behaviour to keep themselves safe and it is usually keeping themselves safe from men.

You cant tell which men are decent unfortunately. I have two sons I have no problem people discussing Male violence. The poem isn't really my type of thing but not because of that.

@M0nica

I take your point, but ......

The poem is called "At What Point do you Tell Your Daughter?" - and whilst I do agree that young men are in danger too, and we have to choose a point at which to warn all our youngsters about this, I do think that women are at far more risk.

"The majority of women are not raped and murdered walking home at night." - but could that be because they are doing exactly what this poet is saying - taking taxis and not walking home in dark lonely places?

"We need to teach them to stand up, walk tall, be aware of danger but not overestimate it." - how do they make that judgment? What is safe and what is not?

"I also think that we force victimisation on girls." - I do not agree - I think we need to make them aware. I have 3 DDs and the fine line between installing fear and helping them to be safe was a very difficult one. But at no point did I encourage them to feel like victims.

The poem is also about how women (young women in particular) feel obliged to please men, adapt their lives around men, bear the brunt of contraception, make themselves attractive .......

I look at Mumsnet sometimes and despair at how many of the posters there are doing things they do not want to do because the porn-ridden young men persuade them it is expected.

I know there are good and decent young men out there - I count my GSs among them and know their parents work hard to instil decency and kindness into them - but there is still an overarching sense that women are there to please others/men. I feel this and would not describe myself as a raving feminist.

I have daughters, granddaughters, son and grandsons.

I am unhappy with how girls are being told to view men as predators.

What about our fathers , sons, grandsons? We are labelling them as dangerous and it's just not true.

A social media trend was going around recently. Man or Bear. Question being which one you'd rather bump into in the middle of the woods.

So many girls opting for the bear. It's very sad. Most men are good and decent

So no, I'm not a fan of this poem

Yes, but.

The majority of women are not raped and murdered walking home at night. Many young men are murdered walking home at night. I would no more want a son walking through a park at night than I would a daughter.

I used to worry far more about my son being waylaid and injured/killed walking well populated, well lit streets at night than I did about DD being attacked and raped when the lights were high and people about. Death by stabbing is instant, a physical attack, overpowering, and molesting takes more time and people can respond.

I warned my children one male, one female equally about danger.

I also think that we force victimiseation on girls. We harp on it endlessly and make them far more fearful than they need to be, and reduce them to skuttling fearfully from lamp post to lamp post.

We need to teach them to stand up, walk tall, be aware of danger but not overestimate it.

BlueBelle

How on earth did she remember all that and at speed too
Excellent

Well she wrote it!

I heard her on WH and was incredibly moved by it, glad my daughters are now all in their 40’s but sad for my 10 year-old granddaughter’s future

Wow! Thankyou for that. Sadly so true , weighloss , lotions and potions , not going out alone in case we get killed- all directed at women!!
How and when will this change?