Sir Keir Starmer has vowed to press ahead with savage welfare cuts, describing the current system as “unsustainable, indefensible and unfair”.

That’s such a familiar description Doodledog. We had managers who were poor practitioners, got into management to get away from front line pressures. Poor practitioners make very poor managers

Thanks, Iam.

theworriedwell, in my workplace people dreaded passive aggressive HR managers who paid lip service to fair practice, yet made it clear that jobs were on the line if we couldn't deliver what students were promised, then called people 'martyrs' when they did what they could to make that happen.

The same people may have been in senior positions but the most dreaded ones had no idea how to manage employees who took time off and passed their workloads on to others.

Martyrdom was never encouraged, but incompetent managers were.

Just a word of support for Doodledog - not a martyr, a responsible employee

I've been trying to find out what plans are for Universal Credit since we've been mainly talking about PIP as regards benefits. Far more people on UC than PIP.

Best I could find in brief:

"The plans - will see the basic rate of Universal Credit (UC) raised to try to incentivise people to stay in the work-search group.

But the highest level of UC - for the most disabled or ill who have been judged unable to work - will go down. (Maybe thats because of PIP?) PIP has been cut inasmuch there is no increase this year, its frozen.

Doodledog

Yes, I had a colleague who had three separate periods of long-term sick for stress - all of them timed so that she came back on a phased return over the summer when there were no students around and she could work from home most of the time. Each time she took six full months off, whilst she was on full pay, and then took leave that had accumulated during her absence.

I got pleurisy, and came back too soon, partly because there were real problems covering my role as we were already stretched because of colleague's absence. I ended up becoming really ill and had to go off sick again, which triggered an HR interview because not enough time had elapsed between the two instances. That sort of thing was not uncommon.

Of course there have to be 'systems', but they do seem to be skewed in favour of MH absenteeism. I think a review is long overdue.

I was a senior HR manager. I dreaded the martyr who dragged themself into work when they should have been resting. They inevitably ended up having more time off than if they'd done the right thing initially. In my workplace they also caused more problems than anyone with stress did but maybe that was because we didn't encourage martyrs and supported people.

Yes, I had a colleague who had three separate periods of long-term sick for stress - all of them timed so that she came back on a phased return over the summer when there were no students around and she could work from home most of the time. Each time she took six full months off, whilst she was on full pay, and then took leave that had accumulated during her absence.

I got pleurisy, and came back too soon, partly because there were real problems covering my role as we were already stretched because of colleague's absence. I ended up becoming really ill and had to go off sick again, which triggered an HR interview because not enough time had elapsed between the two instances. That sort of thing was not uncommon.

Of course there have to be 'systems', but they do seem to be skewed in favour of MH absenteeism. I think a review is long overdue.

Indeed nightowl. I had a return to work interview after RA stopped me driving and left me totally exhausted
Like they’d no idea how serious RA and its associated auto immune conditions are
And yet - ‘some people’ seemed to not have the expectations others subjected to

Or in my case Iam, two weeks off after my mum died. On my return to work my new manager explained that the new sickness policy was in place to look at the causes of absence and tackle the problem of recurrent absences. I asked her if she was aware of the reason I’d been off sick. She said she was. I told her I didn’t think my mum would die again so it shouldn’t be an issue

Aah how I miss the kindness shown in our ‘caring profession’.

Another one in support of Doodledog’s posts
We had good terms and conditions. I’ve posted previously that we could have run a book on when X would go off sick and remain off for 6 months, at which date full pay would become half pay,
The ‘managing sickness absence’ policy was ineffective with X and others but used like a steam roller with more reliable members of staff who eg had 2 weeks off with flu and its recovery,

Oh no I dont think resentment is unreasonable at all. But for me personally that's not the issue.

I wholeheartedly agree with you Doodledog . If there were no alternative, those you mention would just have to get on with it like everyone else.

Also, it is about money, as I am fairly sure that if there were no sick pay (not a situation I would ever advocate for) at least people who go off sick with stress would not do so.

The situation is similar with students refusing to do presentations (or whatever). They can do them when it means getting a job, or moving up at work and there is a financial incentive.

Resentment is not an unreasonable response either. Not everyone works for personal fulfilment. Many only do it to pay the bills, so why should they do someone else's work as well as their own?

It can also be a disaster for those who have to carry them. Not to mention people trying to manage the situation where a job needs to be done but some will not pull their weight and the others resent having to pull it for them.

I agree with doodledog, not in any way because of money or where 'my taxes are spent' or even the impact on others within the workplace/society (although that resentment tends to manifest itself at the ballot box so might be worth thinking about) but mostly because the 'opting out' is generally a disaster for those who do opt out .

I hope it goes without saying that I didn't mention physical illness because that that is a different matter.

I don't mean this to sound unsympathetic, as I'm really not; but how much of being unable to cope is because there is an alternative? If people didn't get paid not to work, would they be more likely to find ways to cope? I've said on another thread that even young children seem to be able to opt out of things that push them out of their comfort zone, and that definitely goes on in universities.

I have very limited patience when people are supposed to be assessed on things that are essential to their careers but can insist (legally) on other means of assessment being found so they are not stressed by something like a presentation. They get the same marks as someone who has pushed through, and IMO it's just not fair, particularly when a few years down the line the people who opt out manage to find the ability to give a presentation when it means promotion and extra money. They can do it, but are allowed by the system to opt out.

I've also seen this happen in the workplace, when people go off sick because they find their job (for which they are taking a salary) too stressful. Someone else gets to pick up their slack, which adds to their own stress, and so it goes on. If people didn't have the option to opt out on full pay, would they find other ways to cope, too? I would much rather see support systems in place, so that people could access cheaper therapy (or whatever is appropriate) than simply not turning up and getting paid. Adults need to take responsibility for their own lives, and we should be (gently) training up children to learn how to do it.

Our mental health services, generally, across the country are appalling.

Not due to those who work in the services, but due to lack of resource and manpower.

Even Charities like MIND now charge for most services.

We need much much better resourced services from child mental health services, right up the scale to pensioners.

When I first started work in the DWP there were many services for those with mental health issues and indeed people with disabilities (under the previous Labour govt)

Within a year the Tories took power and very quickly all the resources were eroded.

We very urgently need the return of support workers, community mental health services, job clubs aimed specially at those with mental health conditions and disability.

People need help and support and money to manage their conditions, some may need counselling and therapy, some need more tailored support.

If things don’t change in this area we will have an ever growing list of people unable to cope.

nanny2507

I must also say I have known people who fake depression to get pip and there is no need for them to work. This is what needs to stop.

One could not live solely on PIP!

Thank you Iam. Working saved me. If I had given in and stayed at home I wouldn’t be here to write this today - and nor would my son as my intention was to take him with me. I am no harder on others than I am on myself.

It’s good to see so many interesting posts and a largely constructive discussion here.
Gin 👍🏻

Barleyfields - your experience is shared by many, for whom work contributed to getting through some challenging times.

My adult DS has Down’s Syndrome. If there were benefits for children with disabilities when he was at school, I never heard about them. I wouldn’t have thought, at that stage, that children would be eligible, unless their needs cost the family more money than it cost to bring up a child without a disability. My son was at a special needs school until he was eighteen, then the local college for a year, which didn’t really cater for his level of need. He then attended a day centre twice a week, and it was then that social services ‘ discovered ‘ him. They found a therapeutic placement for him for two days a week, and he was awarded DLA, when he was twenty, plus support allowance, as he wasn’t fit for paid employment. He is now fifty, and still at home. There is a shortage of places in supported living, and no chance of respite whatsoever, as there is a waiting list a few years long apparently. Maybe not in my lifetime then!

I must also say I have known people who fake depression to get pip and there is no need for them to work. This is what needs to stop.

StoneofDestiny

*There are also a whole band of people who with support and proper intervention can work, and one of the current problems here is the lack of that support*

This is also true. Mental health problems can be very incapacitating and real support is essential. However it is essential that the genuine are separated from the malingerers. That takes skill and a professional assessment. The current ‘system’ isn’t working for a number of reasons. A review is essential.

As you say, it takes skill and professional assessment.

This means providing it

The IAPT services I alluded to could do that. some very very experienced GP's can, but few have the time or knowledge.

As a person on PIP I am hoping I don't get penalties. I have a degenerative disease. Gradually getting worse over time. My pip helps me pay a dog walker, a cleaner, extra heating and water as i am unable to get to the toilet in time and i cant then get off the toilet without something to hold on to, keeps my car on the road and pays insurance for my mobility scooter. I work part time as my health and exhaustion will not allow me to work full time. I cannot stand, I fall over all the time. This money is a life line to me and I just wanted to show that there are genuine people who need this out there.

There are also a whole band of people who with support and proper intervention can work, and one of the current problems here is the lack of that support

This is also true. Mental health problems can be very incapacitating and real support is essential. However it is essential that the genuine are separated from the malingerers. That takes skill and a professional assessment. The current ‘system’ isn’t working for a number of reasons. A review is essential.