Astonished by the number of PIP claimants!

Silverbrooks

I come back to what I posted yesterday evening. What is the PIP money for?

Margiknot gives a very good example of how her adult son who has learning difficulties uses PIP to gain some independence.

But what about the hundreds of thousands of people claiming PIP for anxiety or depression?

I stress I am not suggesting that the symptoms of either aren’t sometimes extremely debilitating.

I can see how someone might score 8 points on the DLA scale, especially in the category Engaging with other people face to face.

www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip/pip-points-system

If I am understanding this, they would be awarded the lower weekly amount of £72.65 per week.

That’s a very specific amount. It would be useful to know how Government arrive at that.

How might someone who is anxious and depressed spend £72.65 a week to gain independence that they wouldn’t otherwise be able to have?

Can anyone give some examples please?

Now that the Mental Health system has shrunk so much, people are using PIP money to pay for carers for the people contact/leaving home/assist in what people would do socially on the most ordinary levels instead of condition worsening.

It used to be that Mental Health services for adults had weekly nurse visits, plus OT support, plus day or drop in centres. This has been wiped out completely, and its a valid use of PIP.

I looked it up for Australia and it is 3.9% on disability support pensions here which the government is concerned about. They are looking into the eligibility criteria. No idea how or when anything is likely to change.

PIPis not meant to subsidise UC, but the basic rate for UC is very low. Single adults below age 35 who need to pay for housing are only allowed the local single room allowance which is often woefully below the cost of actually renting a room in a shared house or flat. I don’t know but I wonder if this is part of the reason people who are too unwell to earn a living wage need to use their PIP to top up their basic living costs?

Silverbrooks, someone I know with debilitating MH conditions, properly diagnosed, had to wait four years to get the treatment and support she needed from the NHS. Her CPN secured PIP for her, Enhanced Daily Living, Standard Mobility. She was housebound by her severe anxiety and BPD, so her only costs were food, heating, electricity, broadband, general household costs. Eventually she was able to leave the house initially using taxis, then public transport, probably with a disability pass. So not really needing the extra money specifically.
Ten years on, she is someone who would, I am sure, benefit from support to get back into work, but her employer would need to be understanding. I am hoping the new scheme will help her, far more than extra money from PIP.

I think there probably are questions to answer in terms of what PIP is used for, I suspect as others say it is often being used to prop up the inadequacy of low wages and/ or other benefits.
The point about remploy is a good one ( although I suspect that model wasn't perfect) - supporting people into work is a social need. I know someone who has complex mental health needs, she works for a mental health charity and as you can imagine is an absolute asset in her work. In addition I think that it is her work, the structure, etc which has ensured she has had good outcomes for herself. However it is because of the nature of the organisation she works for that ensures when she needs it she gets the support she needs, adjustments, flexibility, etc. In other fields, whether that is Marks and Spencers, schools, whatever that support or that flexibility wouldn't be there. That arrangement has given a workplace someone with skills and an outlook that many other employees won't have, and it has ensured an individual is not claiming a range of benefits her whole life or worse needing in patient support from the NHS. It is very difficult to quantify these things but it is a need for individuals and society.

I come back to what I posted yesterday evening. What is the PIP money for?

Margiknot gives a very good example of how her adult son who has learning difficulties uses PIP to gain some independence.

But what about the hundreds of thousands of people claiming PIP for anxiety or depression?

I stress I am not suggesting that the symptoms of either aren’t sometimes extremely debilitating.

I can see how someone might score 8 points on the DLA scale, especially in the category Engaging with other people face to face.

www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip/pip-points-system

If I am understanding this, they would be awarded the lower weekly amount of £72.65 per week.

That’s a very specific amount. It would be useful to know how Government arrive at that.

How might someone who is anxious and depressed spend £72.65 a week to gain independence that they wouldn’t otherwise be able to have?

Can anyone give some examples please?

mrsmeldrew

I totally support PIP for disabled people but there seems a massive uptake for PIP claims from people with MH issues. C4 had an interview with a your person who had no visible disabilities, very erudite and confident. She was complaining if they stop her PIP she won't be able to afford medications and therapy.

Well, I thought people on benefits got free prescriptions and as for paying for therapy - well there must be many working people who would like therapy but can't afford it.

I heard the interview and confess to having been slightly irritated by it.
We should all work when at working age.
I’m still cross that the last government closed Remploy, it helped so many people. It should have been seen as socially significant rather than as not making a profit

I can’t agree completely with your last sentence Sarnia DD2 on DLA (awarded ‘for life’ due to a physical disability) couldn’t wait to get behind the wheel to gain some independence. Having had me drive her to school for years, she was familiar with heavy traffic, often asked questions and appreciated what I did, why and when. Remember, any learner driver needs lessons and has to be accompanied by a full licence holder and can’t sit the practical test until 17.
I’m sure many of those who need help coping with day to day life won’t be eligible to get a driving licence and I know certain medications make others ineligible too. I’m also aware of a young man whose MH deteriorated to the point he was reported to DVLA as dangerous and his licence was later revoked.

On the whole, I’m fine with the earlier licence system as it stands.

mrsmeldrew

I totally support PIP for disabled people but there seems a massive uptake for PIP claims from people with MH issues. C4 had an interview with a your person who had no visible disabilities, very erudite and confident. She was complaining if they stop her PIP she won't be able to afford medications and therapy.

Well, I thought people on benefits got free prescriptions and as for paying for therapy - well there must be many working people who would like therapy but can't afford it.

The best therapy for those seated on the MH bandwagon, without any genuine need, would find getting their backsides out of bed in the morning and going to work would pay dividends on many levels.
Sitting around and dwelling on things would make anyone depressed. Get dressed and get out to work. Meeting people, making friends, learning the ropes, all would make for a much happier life and earning your own money instils a sense of pride and achievement.
Pandering to this generation will get us nowhere.

My autistic grandson will be 16 in June. He has been on the Disability Living Allowance since he was first diagnosed at the age of 3.
As he is now in Year 11 and leaving school after his GCSE's this summer, the DLA ends but he would be eligible to apply for a PIP in its place.
He told me that his Mum will not be applying for it because he no longer needs any assistance. He is capable of manging himself without any extra help and will be using public transport to get to College come September.
He made me laugh when he said if he was getting a PIP at 16 he would be able to apply for his provisional driving licence but now he will have to wait another year. He thought it strange that those who need help with coping with daily life are allowed behind the wheel whist others who do not have these issues have to wait until they are 17.
His words were 'It's like giving a toddler a set of car keys!'. I have to agree with him.

I totally support PIP for disabled people but there seems a massive uptake for PIP claims from people with MH issues. C4 had an interview with a your person who had no visible disabilities, very erudite and confident. She was complaining if they stop her PIP she won't be able to afford medications and therapy.

Well, I thought people on benefits got free prescriptions and as for paying for therapy - well there must be many working people who would like therapy but can't afford it.

There is already an Access to Work scheme which pays for additional needs enabling a claimant to work. This can be quite generous according to what the needs are, so I wonder what any new measures to help people to work might include. Do any Gransnetters have experience of the present scheme?

I also agree with Silverbrooks.

I've made the point before, but my understanding is that PIP isn't to subsidise Universal Credit. Admittedly, UC is inadequate, but (as far as I know) PIP is to enable people to buy in whatever they help they need to live a normal quality of life.

Good points Cabbie21 and it's good to hear from somebody who actually has experience of PIP claims.

My adult son gets PIP because he has learning disability and other health issues. He cannot look after money ( he lives with us- we care for him 24/7) but needs all day support. We use his pip to pay for attending a club for younger adults with learning disability and some of the extra costs of keeping him safe. He learns social and other skills when out and about with this club and it’s one day a week when we can do things that are easier without him like seeing the dentist or getting the supermarket shop done. It’s costly because the carer to client ratio is high.
Disabled people who need paid carers or other services organised by the local authority are assessed to see how little they could live on and if receiving universal credit have to use a significant part of their UC to pay for their client contribution of their care. This leaves them with less to live on than people receiving UC but without care needs.

I think you raise a very good point, Silverbrooks..
I have helped many people to complete PIP claim forms or to challenge PIP decisions, but my task was to help them explain how they met the criteria, not to judge. I only ever met one person who I felt would not qualify, though I knew from experience that some would not be successful.
Most did not really understand the criteria or how they might qualify.

I often wondered ( privately) how they would use the money, as the majority did not seem to have specific financial needs - or no more than anyone else on a low income. This leads me to think that the basic Universal Credit is insufficient to cover the basic needs of anyone not in work. I think many people rely on PIP to pay the bills, especially heating bills, rather than to pay for care costs, or for help around the house.
Of course, the most severely disabled have great needs for special equipment, additional care, particular food or clothing, but their claims are not in any doubt.
So whilst I am not at all happy that the country’s deficit should be plugged by claimants losing entitlement to benefits by tightening the criteria, I do privately find it hard to justify the high cost of benefit claims, when their ( undoubted ) illnesses and disabilities do not actually generate specific higher costs.

I can certainty see the value of measures to help people back into work, but before that can happen, they need more medical help, especially psychiatric help, or long overdue operations and other treatments to improve their health. Otherwise they will not be able to hold down a job.

Thank you for that, Casdon. Very interesting.

What I am trying to undertand is how the money from PIP helps, what does it pay for.

Those stats show that almost 400,000 PIP awards (almost 30% of all awards) are for mixed anxiety and depressive disorders. While I understand that when these conditions are severe, sufferers may feel unable to wash, bathe, get dressed etc but what is the money actually for?

Turn2Us says:

Personal Independence Payment (PIP) is money for people who have extra care or mobility needs as a result of a disability.

Are those people so ill that they need someone to care for them on a daily basis, a service that has to be paid for or a carer's lost wages covered?

Or am I not understanding what PIP is?

PIP claims by category.
www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip/pip-awards-by-condition
Unsurprisingly, 38% of claims are for psychiatric illnesses, followed by musculoskeletal problems at 19%, then a multitude of other conditions.

It was the previous government that designed PIP as a new benefit for adults in order to stop the fraud from DLA which stood then at less than 1%

Indeed. This from the gov.uk site:

Daily living part

You might get the daily living part of PIP if you need help with:

•preparing food
•eating and drinking
•managing your medicines or treatments
•washing and bathing
•using the toilet
•dressing and undressing
•reading
•managing your money
•socialising and being around other people
•talking, listening and understanding

Mobility part

You might get the mobility part of PIP if you need help with:

•working out a route and following it
•physically moving around
•leaving your home

You do not have to have a physical disability to get the mobility part. You might also be eligible if you have difficulty getting around because of a cognitive or mental health condition, like anxiety.

In 2022, DisabilityRightsUK said:

The increase in claims has been seen across ages and conditions. Essentially all ages have seen their claim rate roughly double, although for teenagers it has tripled. Claims for most major conditions also increased by a similar amount. Around a third of the new claims are for mental or behavioural conditions, although among claimants under 25 that figure rises to 70%.

We must remember that not all disabilities are visible too.

This explains the criteria for PIP.

www.gov.uk/pip

Presumably it's a higher percentage because people over SPA can't make a new claim for PIP, so (unless people were already claiming), only those under SPA are eligible.

To be honest, I'm quite astonished too, although I have no doubt that there are those (most?) who are genuine claimants.

It's not really supposed to be a benefit to cover the increased cost of utilities etc, unless people actually need extra heating as a result of their illness/disability.

Gloriana
Add another 2.5 mil to that population number.

Not all people stay on PIP it might be short term