Is this ethical?

Astitchintime

Sago didn’t make it clear in the original post that the person was applying a charge for services.

Charging a fee service was clear in the OP.

The question, imo, was ethics of fees for form filling.

I've no idea how to the accounting for my husband's business. I could research, I suppose, and still be wrong. We pay, money well spent.

Astitchintime

Sago didn’t make it clear in the original post that the person was applying a charge for services.

Sago said, in the original post that a fee was to be charged.

Thank you Namato3 and Doodledog.

Esmay

What a greedy woman .
It's far too much money .
Believe me the form isn't difficult-just go through it carefully and slowly .

I suppose if people are at a low ebb and struggling, being faced with these forms might seem a daunting task. A member of my family said she had completed the forms for her mother, who had the beginnings of dementia, and I'm sure she said one application form was 40 pages long.

If we're feeling fit and well and with all our faculties, it might be easy to complete the forms but that is not the demographic who would be applying anyway.

The charge seems rather steep to me. I'm sure Citizens' Advice or similar organisations could help if someone is struggling.

It may not be unethical but it leaves a bad taste, somehow.

Cabbie21

I took a lot of time giving my response to the OP last night and it is frustrating to read individual contributors squabbling, interrupting the flow.

I'm sorry Cabbie to interrupt the flow of the thread but I was having to defend myself when Doodledog asked
How on earth I came to my conclusion.

I won't stand to feel intimidated on a forum by another member. I expect to interact with the OP , not other members asking how I got to my opinion .

Cabbie21

I took a lot of time giving my response to the OP last night and it is frustrating to read individual contributors squabbling, interrupting the flow.

Sorry, Cabbie. Only the first couple of sentences of my post were in response to the 'squabble', but the choice was to defend myself or to ignore being called 'cruel' and a 'bully' after being told to 'interact with someone else' because I asked Nanato3 questions about her post upthread. I did not start 'squabbling', but simply asked why she felt as she did - how was I to know that she 'doesn't expect her posts to be questioned'? For most of us, that is a given, and is how debate works. This is a discussion board after all.

For the past year or so, GN has become much more fractious, and that choice has become much more stark. I am well aware of many posters who have left because of personal attacks if they speak up, and nearly did so myself, but decided against it for now.

I have also taken time to engage in this debate, incidentally, and am pleased that others have done likewise. It is an interesting question, and it is a shame if you feel you have wasted your time.

I took a lot of time giving my response to the OP last night and it is frustrating to read individual contributors squabbling, interrupting the flow.

Doodledog

Nanato3

What was the point of including me in your post ?
It was unnecessary and cruel . Your a bully !!

I’m not, as regular posters will know. I have just started to stand up for myself instead of ignoring the current trend to attack people who don’t back down. People can read back if they want to see what has led up to your own attack (you telling me to interact with others rather than you), although I doubt many will bother, as it’s boring.

To return to the point of the thread - only those who can afford to work for no money can offer to volunteer. Young people struggle to find work in careers in areas such as acting, PR, music or TV as there are many ‘volunteers’ who can afford to work as interns because they have parents who can help them to get in the ladder.

I see this as similar. Boosting a CV by giving free legal advice is great for someone who doesn’t need to bring in money to pay the rent, and can be fulfilling for someone with a decent pension who wants to feel useful in retirement. Someone with experience of firm filling who understands the frustrations of life on a fixed budget, however, may have a more practical approach but not be able (or even allowed by the benefit system) to offer a free service. Why should they be seen as exploitative for asking to be paid, when dentists, lawyers, nail technicians or dressmakers are not?

When I reply to a thread I'm interacting with the OP.
I don't expect my response to be questioned by other members. Do you really have to make fun of someone else's
opinion ? I'm just starting to stand up for myself, it's not funny to be made fun of .It is boring having your posts questioned all the time . I don't want any of my posts to be questioned and made fun of by anyone. I've never come across a forum like this before where I've felt attacked.

I've been a member of other forums for a long time and only found support and kindness . It's a pity this forum isn't the same . I always try to be kind in my posts, it's a shame you don't do the same. Other posters said the same as me but you didn't pick on them did you ? Why did you single me out ? You then got your friend to back you up . There was no need for any of it . Give your own opinion and don't pick on others because they don't agree with you.

Nanato3

What was the point of including me in your post ?
It was unnecessary and cruel . Your a bully !!

I’m not, as regular posters will know. I have just started to stand up for myself instead of ignoring the current trend to attack people who don’t back down. People can read back if they want to see what has led up to your own attack (you telling me to interact with others rather than you), although I doubt many will bother, as it’s boring.

To return to the point of the thread - only those who can afford to work for no money can offer to volunteer. Young people struggle to find work in careers in areas such as acting, PR, music or TV as there are many ‘volunteers’ who can afford to work as interns because they have parents who can help them to get in the ladder.

I see this as similar. Boosting a CV by giving free legal advice is great for someone who doesn’t need to bring in money to pay the rent, and can be fulfilling for someone with a decent pension who wants to feel useful in retirement. Someone with experience of firm filling who understands the frustrations of life on a fixed budget, however, may have a more practical approach but not be able (or even allowed by the benefit system) to offer a free service. Why should they be seen as exploitative for asking to be paid, when dentists, lawyers, nail technicians or dressmakers are not?

Not ethical to me or maybe not even legal! A lot of personal info,data protection etc.I would not use anyone like that How much is she charging? I would be concerned.

I would be a bit dubious about paying an individual who is not part of an organisation like CitA or AgeUK or a specific charity, but I don’t think in itself it is unethical. As others have said, is it any different from paying for other services?
I might be concerned that the person would distort what a claimant was saying, or be dishonest in order to get paid for a successful claim, but they are not automatically going to be dishonest. It is obviously safer if the person helping with the forms is backed by an organisation.
Qualifications? (Not all gardeners or cleaners have a qualification.) Experience is more important.

As a volunteer I have completed many PIP and AA forms, and helped clients to challenge a decision or appeal to Tribunal. As far as I know, all those I helped were successful, but we didn’t always get feedback.
I had training and developed expertise in this area, ( not a ‘qualification’, as such, though I do have a French degree!) but that still doesn’t guarantee success.
I have read decision letters from DWP which totally ignore or distort what claimants have said. They even contradict evidence from medical specialists. The system is flawed. There is no guarantee that a completed form will lead to a successful claim. In any case, it is followed up by an assessment, though nowadays very few are done face to face. I have no proof, but I believe assessors have targets and are expected to fail a certain number of claimants each day.

In theory there is nothing to stop me (or anyone else) accepting payment for helping a person to complete a form. Most people I helped were very grateful. In 15 years as a volunteer I only met one person who I believed was not a genuine claimant, ie was lying.
I met one other who was genuine but I had to tell her that after careful consideration I did not think she was eligible and if she went ahead she was unlikely to succeed. She trusted me and did not continue. In fact she had done no homework( not unusual) - she had not studied the criteria.
Most clients turned up for an appointment not even having read the form. They had not even managed to fill in their name and address. Some could not correctly provide contact details of their GP or medical centre. Some couldn’t read, or were too panicky or anxious to focus. Others totally misunderstood questions and told me what they could do, and needed to be encouraged to tell me about what they struggled with or could only do with help or support.
My Mum eventually claimed AA but only with help to acknowledge where she struggled. She was such a positive person who found ways to solve her problems, not dwell on her restrictions.
I guess if I needed the money I could offer my services for a ( reasonable- not £150! ) fee. It would not be unethical. Some claimants can afford to pay. It is not always easy to access free help. But like many other situations, it is open to abuse.

Nanato3

What was the point of including me in your post ?
It was unnecessary and cruel . Your a bully !!

This was meant for Doodledog .

Nanato3

What was the point of including me in your post ?
It was unnecessary and cruel . Your a bully !!

This is meant for Doodledog .

Tenko

I think it’s unethical . Ageuk helped fill the forms in for my mother and my late fil . And I believe CAB do the same , all for free .
I would br very concerned about giving personal and financial information to a stranger, who has no governing body .
I understand that some vulnerable people don’t have family to help and maybe that’s who she’s preying on.
Also how do people know her track record. She might be rubbish and people are being refused AA .

I agree, she's preying on the vulnerable to make money.

What was the point of including me in your post ?
It was unnecessary and cruel . Your a bully !!

Astitchintime

Sago didn’t make it clear in the original post that the person was applying a charge for services.

This is an example of why some people need help with written material.

Tenko

I think it’s unethical . Ageuk helped fill the forms in for my mother and my late fil . And I believe CAB do the same , all for free .
I would br very concerned about giving personal and financial information to a stranger, who has no governing body .
I understand that some vulnerable people don’t have family to help and maybe that’s who she’s preying on.
Also how do people know her track record. She might be rubbish and people are being refused AA .

CAB will indeed support PIP applications....however the average worker does it very badly ....if you go on the scope website there are loads of posts about how pip applications supported by cab have been denied ....the correct language must be used to complete these forms....I personally would have paid 300£ first time i completed one ....it was more luck than judgement that I was awarded....several years later I know the drill

I think it’s unethical because the woman concerned is a florist not a welfare officer or ex welfare officer.
Also the inference in her advert is that her “ expertise” in form filling will guarantee a successful claim.

HelterSkelter
It’s not a scam. With a scam you’re out of pocket. With this you have a choice of whether to proceed or not.

Having a solicitor draw up legal documents such as a will and documents such as Power of Attorney is hardly being taken advantage of or treated unethically. The solicitor one hopes is qualified. You can complete a will or POA yourself or can choose to pay for it to be done.

This situation OP has dsecribed is a woman on Facebook who a poster above has looked into and has found she has a qualification in floristry. She may be very good at form filling, she may be taking advantage of vulnerable people. Who knows. But it sounds very dodgy and expensive.

There are places to get help free of charge which I would choose should I need to complete and AA request and found the forms confusing. I would feel this woman is behaving unethically. She gets 150.00 even if what she enters is rubbish and is refused.

Sounds to me like one of the many scams we hear about all the time.

JenniferEccles

I have sometimes noticed on threads discussing filling in welfare claims forms, that there would be an offer of help from a poster. I did wonder at the time just how wise it was to give personal financial details to a total stranger online.

Benefit forms are not just about money.
You could be asked can you dress yourself lots of people are ok with the top half of the body but it can get difficult below the waist. So if you were filling in that form what would you say. How far does dressing yourself go

Can someone (not Nanato3, obviously ) please explain why they think that offering a service is unethical, when people can take it or leave it? I just don't understand.

We had a solicitor come to the house to help us fill out the LPA forms and draft a will. We could have bought a kit and done it ourselves, or gone to Age UK or the CBA and had a volunteer do it free, but we made the decision to pay an expert to do it at our convenience.

Were we taken advantage of, or treated unethically? Have we shown ourselves to be vulnerable and preyed upon by a charlatan? I don't see it that way at all, and would be interested to know why some clearly disagree.

I don’t think it’s unethical. Is it not akin to paying the post office for checking your passport application? (Not that I ever have).
I applied for AA for both of my parents over the years, it’s time consuming and can be complicated. Neither of them could have done it unaided.

I think it’s unethical . Ageuk helped fill the forms in for my mother and my late fil . And I believe CAB do the same , all for free .
I would br very concerned about giving personal and financial information to a stranger, who has no governing body .
I understand that some vulnerable people don’t have family to help and maybe that’s who she’s preying on.
Also how do people know her track record. She might be rubbish and people are being refused AA .