Can Intelligence Really be Measured by a Test?

The 11+ has different pass rates for girls and boys to enable enough boys to pass. Grossly unfair way to operate IMHO as many girls were prevented from going on to grammar school. While IQ tests are pretty flawed they do help differentiate between people with different abilities and have their place. As parent of a v high 'IQ' child who could hardly read aged 10 it was useful in getting SEN support (he's got several degrees now).

My late OH had a brain like a planet, but .......

I once caught him hand sawing the side off a large rectangular piece of wood and looked quizzically at it as he laboured away down the line he had drawn down the one side - I spotted a similar line on the other side. I said "What are you doing?" - "It is an inch too big so I am taking half an inch off either side." I did point out to him the flaw in his plan ......

This from a man who had degrees and post grad qualifications coming out of his ears!

Highly intelligent people wouldn't pay an annual fee to join Mensa.

Just like very short people don't need to buy a measuring tape to prove it.

When I was a child our next door neighbour was Headmaster at St Paul's girls'school. He was very clever. If we asked him questions he would answer in Latin and expect us to translate, and his jokes were often difficult to decipher. However he had never changed a plug or a light bulb. He never learnt to drive, all the driving was done by his wife, including all their holidays abroad - which was very unusual in the 50s. Running the house, organising holidays, paying bills, making sure the children got to school, everything was done by his wife. His contribution was usually making witty remarks about whatever was happening.

Whiff

It depends on your definition of intelligence? I know some really intelligent people but they haven't got an ounce of common sense. And forget getting them to do anything practical.

Many of them will have ADHD and dyspraxia.

DS is one of those. He is an academic and the classic absent minded professor.

foxie48

Well done Crossstitchfan getting a score of 152 is pretty impressive and if it's given you confidence, that's got to be good for you. I'm still pretty good with number and word type puzzles but I've noticed I'm less good with spatial type tests, definitely not as quick as I used to be but I think that's normal once we get into our 70's.

Thank you! I bet I’m not as good as that now though! The test was done when I was in my 40s! Those were the days!

Intelligence is a funny thing. My late DH was a smashing engineer (Cambridge mechanical sciences tripos) and lifelong private pilot after National Service in the RAF.
But now and again, I was the one who saw a way round a mechanical problem. And the logistics of our life, truly that was better left to me although I claim no great intellectual ability.

foxie48

I find genetics absolutely fascinating. My sister and I have very different intellectual abilities although neither of us has suffered any medical reason for this disparity. It is just how we are. I think Mensa tests are a bit like beauty contests, as the people taking part are just demonstrating what they were born with rather than what they have worked for, bit like the size of their feet or the colour of their eyes.

Well said.
I did pass the 11+ and it wasn't for my looks (if it was I'd have failed!).

I do think beauty might be only skin deep but it does seem to help people become successful in life.

Well done Crossstitchfan getting a score of 152 is pretty impressive and if it's given you confidence, that's got to be good for you. I'm still pretty good with number and word type puzzles but I've noticed I'm less good with spatial type tests, definitely not as quick as I used to be but I think that's normal once we get into our 70's.

Luckygirl3, I can see your point, but can’t quite agree. You said, ‘IQ tests test the ability to do IQ tests’. True, but if you don’t have the intelligence to start with, you won’t be able to do them.
I don’t know exactly how it works but the Tests were designed in such a way that people with a low IQ would not be able to pass them. They are also timed, so there is pressure from that too.
Anyway, I loved taking it, (I now enjoy doing them for fun if I can find them) but I know it’s each to his own.

Magenta8 and Retread, - don’t worry! I don’t take offence and, anyway, you didn’t give that impression at all.
I think some people regard passing the Test as some sort of badge of honour! For me, it was just something I did for fun (with encouragement from an over-excitable friend! She spotted something about it in her paper and persuaded me to go for it). Mensa sent me a trial test, which I was asked to do under supervised conditions. The friend who persuaded me, watched me like a hawk! As a retired teacher, she was perfect for making sure I didn’t cheat. I then sent the completed test off to Mensa who then suggested I took the ‘official’ test, as my IQ was apparently 152! Well, I fell for the flattery and had to go to a sports hall in a nearby town where I, and several others, took the timed test under the supervision of a member of the Mensa staff. It was all good fun, but to be fair, it hasn’t made a difference to me in my working life. It’s just given me a big head! 😂
And Whiff- you are absolutely correct, many high IQ people are thick as planks!

Magenta8

*Crossstitchfan*. I hope I didn't give the impression that I think that the MENSA intelligence test is rubbish, I don't. You must have a speedy and logical brain to be MENSA standard. As you say you are quick on the uptake and you are good at problem solving.

I agree!

It depends on your definition of intelligence? I know some really intelligent people but they haven't got an ounce of common sense. And forget getting them to do anything practical.

Luckygirl3

IQ tests test the ability to do IQ tests - that is all.

Whether that ability leads to a happier and more successful life no-one knows.

What makes you think that a high IQ of itself is meant to lead to a happier and more successful life?

However there are flaws in the argument that because a score in a test improves with practice it makes the test invalid. There is a big difference between improving with practice and being outstandingly brilliant, often without practice.

For example I have never tried my hand at making pottery. Give me a piece of clay and show me a wheel and ask me to make a pot. The result would be a dismal failure.

Send me on a course to learn pottery and I will get the knack and be able to turn out a pot or jug, but, even if I were to practice all day every day for months I would not be producing more than mediocre to average pots. I would certainly not be producing the exquisite works of Lucy Rie or Bernard Leach.

It is exactly the same with IQ tests. certainly results can improve with practice, but those who have a natural gift for something will always do far better, often without practicing.

All the evidence points to those having the highest academic attainments, those involved in academia and making the great scientific discoveries all had well above average scores in intelligence tests.

The measurements of IQ are considerably better than the assessments for all the other forms of intelligence that have been predicated, but never fully proven, by one or two reearchers.

In Primary 6 and 7, we had tests, more or less out of the blue. there was certainly no time to prepare for them. They were what I later came to know as 'verbal reasoning' tests. On the basis of our results we were allocated to various streams of secondary school. It was quite surprising to discover which of us arrived in the top stream! After six years, most of us achieved decent exam results and many went on the higher education. Where are we all now?

Crossstitchfan. I hope I didn't give the impression that I think that the MENSA intelligence test is rubbish, I don't. You must have a speedy and logical brain to be MENSA standard. As you say you are quick on the uptake and you are good at problem solving.

Retread

Crossstitchfan

It’s hard knowing you are getting old. For me, when I feel a bit age-worn, I think that knowing I could have joined Mensa has given me a boost. At 80, on days when I do something silly, and realise how ancient I am, I cheer myself up by thinking, ‘I could have joined Mensa! I am nobody’s fool!’ It does help me to feel like a somebody and not a nobody. Daft really, I suppose.

I think that's brilliant

And that approach works both ways - when my friend's husband (the MENSA man) asks her for help with the cryptic crossword, she is known to jokingly respond "You're the genius, work it out!"

Thank you, Retread.
Being Mensa material doesn’t mean one is brainy (well, it does in some cases, but not in mine). General knowledge is not my thing at all. I am quite thick regarding that! I suppose the only difference I see between me and friends (and previously, colleagues) is that I am pretty quick on the uptake and can quite often suggest solutions to problems where others can’t. I think the greatest advantage for me is that it boosts my confidence on ‘down’ days. At 80, it’s easy to feel stupid and forgotten, but I don’t feel that at all, and wonder if it is because of Mensa. In any event, I’m glad I took the test.

Our granddaughter was quite ill on the day of 11+. Temperature and weak, not due to nerves.
Had it not been for her practice sessions to carry her through, she would probably not have passed.
Tests test how to pass tests!

I passed the 11+ but we were coached! I noticed the effect of this after missing a coaching session - at the next I couldn't answer a question because the principle of it was new to me. The others had covered it the week before. My O and A levels were pretty mediocre but I did manage university and got a Lower Second - nothing out of the ordinary. However, I did take the Mensa test and passed, which was a bit of a boost to my morale. I met some interesting people but the local group folded after a while.

IQ tests test the ability to do IQ tests - that is all.

Whether that ability leads to a happier and more successful life no-one knows.

Re the 11 plus, because we’d been living abroad, dd1 had never seen the type of ‘verbal reasoning’ tests they then used, until her first term at a U.K. school. Around a year previously, she’d failed an entrance exam for a selective school - the exam had consisted largely of such tests.

A friend of MiL, who ran a small private prep school, had told me that practice would make no difference - the tests were designed to ascertain their ‘potential’ - thus implying that dd had no potential! Glad to say that MiL was as miffed as I was!

Her new U.K. school - she had just one term before the 11 plus - gave them practice tests every day. Her initial scores were around 45% but by the end of term they were more like 90%+.
So much for practice making no difference!

She passed the 11+, and the entrance exam for a highly selective independent.

In the old days ie before the introduction of Comprehensive education, I doubt many children had coaching for the 11 plus. However, in those LAs that retain grammar schools the competition for places is very intense and coaching is common place. Coaching can definitely improve performance which IMO demonstrates that the tests are testing something other than innate intelligence. The UCAT and BMAT tests used entry into medical school are also used to test general intelligence but if someone took the tests twice on different days I doubt they'd get the same results!

The mensa test proves to intelligent people who already know they are, that yes! They are intelligent.🤭

NotSpaghetti

In "my day" we were given no warning (let alone coaching) re the 11+

We were just presented with it one day... and then it was over.

I di not know the 11 plus even existed. In my last year in junior school. I started the year at a British syllabus school in Hong Kong, then missed a term in quarantine for chicken pox, plus moving from Hong Kong to Singapore, then in the summer term I went to the army primary school in Singapore.

One day a teacher put his head round the door and said 'Has everybody in here done their Moray House?' I put my hand up and said 'What is the Moray House' 'Right' he said, 'You obviously haven't done it, come with me' and off I went. I and about 4 others from another class were taken into a seperate classroom and I spent the morning doing all these paper tests.

A month later my parents got a letter to say I would be going to the army grammar school in the Autumn. I had no preparation. I had never even seen or done aany practice tests.

My children went to private school and sat competitive entrance tests. bar obtaining a book of practice tests, so they were familiar with the nature of the tests, I did nothing to coach them, nor did I get them any coaching. I wanted them to feel relaxed about the tests, they would do better if they were relaxed about them any way. We made it clear that if they got a place at the school it was fine, if they didn't, it wasn't the end of the world, there were plenty of other schools. They made the cut for both schools.

Crossstitchfan

It’s hard knowing you are getting old. For me, when I feel a bit age-worn, I think that knowing I could have joined Mensa has given me a boost. At 80, on days when I do something silly, and realise how ancient I am, I cheer myself up by thinking, ‘I could have joined Mensa! I am nobody’s fool!’ It does help me to feel like a somebody and not a nobody. Daft really, I suppose.

I think that's brilliant

And that approach works both ways - when my friend's husband (the MENSA man) asks her for help with the cryptic crossword, she is known to jokingly respond "You're the genius, work it out!"