Have you had ‘The chat’ with your children about your future care needs.

Camry1952

I found out recently that POAs are only valid while you're living as far as the matter of assisting with money matters. If you want whoever will be arranging matters after you die to have access, you need to have a beneficiary to your bank account because the bank freezes access to the account upon your death. In order for your loved ones to avoid probate court you should have a POD (paid on death) clause on your accounts.My mother had this and there was no problem accessing her account when she died.

Yes - POAs cease when someone dies which is why people need to have a will too. I don't know when your DM died, but I don't know if POD arrangements are still possible for UK bank accounts? Obviously, it's different for joint accounts where survivorship rules apply.

But neither avoids the requirement for probate. HMRC still need to know whether there is any IHT payable on the estate; and some accounts can't be closed without a probate order (eg premium bond accounts over a certain limit).

Apparently, some banks may offer ways to designate beneficiaries to receive funds automatically on death, to help to meet the expenses, usually by transferring the funds to an executors account. Hence the need for a will, with named executor/s. Standard UK practice is to freeze sole accounts until probate.

My daughter is often the most senior doctor on duty on a large ITU so the decision to stop treatment or not offer an ITU bed is one she has to make from time to time. Generally the patient is too unwell or if already on life support to communicate so the discussion about treatment is held with relatives (if possible) however it is ultimately up to the doctor to make the decision of what is in the patient's best interests. Generally she finds relatives understand when prolonging life by artificial means is not in the best interests of the patient but very occasionally this is not the case which is why doctors document all the actions they take and the reasons behind those actions very carefully but it really helps if all patients have discussed their wishes with their relatives.

Witzend

AFAIK a DNR only covers resuscitation when the heart has stopped.

What we added to our H&W Ps of A goes like this:

‘If I should develop dementia, or any other condition where I am unable both to care for myself, and speak, with full mental capacity for myself, then I do not want any life-saving or life-prolonging treatment. I ask for palliative care only.’

I’m sympathetic to what you’re trying to achieve with this statement, but I’m not sure how it could be applied. Given that dementia is progressive, and the ability to look after and speak for yourself disappears gradually, it’s difficult to know at what point this request would take effect. You may be making the job quite difficult for your attorney.

I think other people misunderstand DNR too - there’s helpful clarification above.

Atul Gwande is a surgeon and has written a really helpful book about end of life care called ‘Being Mortal: Medicine and What Matters in the End. He talks about the value of having discussions in advance, and frames the conversation in terms of what matters to people in their lives - so when does life stop being meaningful and enjoyable, rather than in terms of medical interventions. And considers the trade off between quality of life and treatments to prolong life.

I think one of the most important things is to keep conversations ‘live’ - to revisit them if circumstances change. And to update wills and POAs. Wills may need to be updated if grandchildren arrive, and how you feel about something written (or not) in your POA might feel very different in 5 or 10 years time.

Will and POAs in place. Discussion with both kids about all those etc. Also a password secured file detailing accounts; savings and passwords to get in etc.. Both kids have password.

Witzend, thanks for your post.
Our experience with my 86 year old mum, my 70 year old husband and his 92 year old mother has increased my confidence and belief in the medical and social work teams involved in end of life care.
Money simply wasn’t an issue

starnded

From experience, medics are usually very open to a discussion on with relatives, as to whether life should be prolonged, or whether it’d be kinder to use palliative care, and let Nature take its course.

I had to have this conversation with her GP, after a childless aunt in her 80s with fairly advanced dementia, was suffering from the umpteenth UTI and was refusing food and drink.

Really? Because they were happy enough to keep my family members alive , as long as the money was rolling in?

The GP in my aunt’s case would certainly not have benefitted from any ‘money rolling in’, and the care home staff made absolutely no objection to the palliative care that was put in place.

Also, once she was over 90 with fairly advanced dementia, I spoke to my mother’s care home staff, to say that except in the case of e.g. a 2nd broken hip, there was to be no hospital and no ‘striving to keep alive’ - IMO it would have been verging on cruelty.
They agreed absolutely. As for ‘money rolling in’ they never seemed to have any trouble filling a room after someone had died. I think they may even have had people on the waiting list. It was an excellent, purpose built, specialist dementia care home, and less expensive than many ‘flasher’ homes that we looked at.

Allalongagatha

I am a strong believer that everyone should have a health POA whatever their age. Is is easy to do and fairly cheap.

I think the finance and property POA is much more important. My dad died last month and when I asked his doctors whether having the health and welfare POA would have made any difference answer was “ none whatsoever”. Whereas without the finance and property POA I couldn’t possible have bought his retirement flat and managed all his finances.

Thanks Norah - good to know all will be sorted automatically by the solicitor.

I feel I've "done my bit" by having a will.

Re earlier point on "there's death cafes everywhere" by someone else. I've now checked - and indeed there isn't. Would be lucky to find one even in a city in Wales by the look of it. Looks more like an English city thing to expect to find one.

Yes, all has been sorted.

Camry1952

I found out recently that POAs are only valid while you're living as far as the matter of assisting with money matters. If you want whoever will be arranging matters after you die to have access, you need to have a beneficiary to your bank account because the bank freezes access to the account upon your death. In order for your loved ones to avoid probate court you should have a POD (paid on death) clause on your accounts.My mother had this and there was no problem accessing her account when she died.

Do you mean I need to have the solicitor that drew up my will as a beneficiary to my bank account (presumably savings too?) - as it's all going to one named local charity in the event.

I'm assuming a solicitor should be able to deal with everything if it comes to it for, say, a single person and just the one beneficiary (ie that charity)??? The solicitor should obviously have said if things are any different - and they didnt say (but I have found them out in one bit of inefficiency subsequently - so they may have done more inefficiency).

I presume for straightforward will like mine the solicitor will send someone in to clear my house, check for any relevant paperwork, sell the house, put the money together with it and then pass it on to that charity = job done and dusted??

I found out recently that POAs are only valid while you're living as far as the matter of assisting with money matters. If you want whoever will be arranging matters after you die to have access, you need to have a beneficiary to your bank account because the bank freezes access to the account upon your death. In order for your loved ones to avoid probate court you should have a POD (paid on death) clause on your accounts.My mother had this and there was no problem accessing her account when she died.

CariadAgain

One in my last post!!!!

To save looking up a dictionary (or Google would say) "erstwhile" means - in the past. I binned the relationship with him - as he'd already murdered it anyway basically. Wouldnt even listen to me explaining the legal way to put things right - and I put it in very simple language (ie so he would understand it).

I wasn’t talking about your last post! I was talking about the one that had several ‘erstwhiles’ in it! (I did look that up, by the way and found that is a largely unused word nowadays. Not surprised!) it sounded very old-fashioned.

67notout

Will is done and so are insurance policies. Grave sorted. That was very important to me. Finance poa done in ds name because he lives near and comes here every day. Dd said she would do poas four years ago, fell out with me when I got ds to do finance one and asked her to health one. Eventually over two years ago she agreed, said she’d sort it but still hasn’t so I haven’t got a health one. I don’t know what to do. She lives four hours drive away, I see her a handful of times a year. Ds knows more about health issues and does hospice and hospital stuff without a grumble. If he has the health one too she’ll kick off again. Truly don’t know what to do.

Maybe swop them around???

At present - the male child has the finance one and you've asked the female child to do the health one. Cue for one could see how she might think "So he gets to deal with all the finance stuff as he thinks - bet he won't even consult me. Why is it always men more likely to be in that position?"

Followed by thinking "The woman (ie myself) getting the health one. Looks like she's trying to set me up to be a carer if need be....why are carers usually the female child?"

Who is actually better with money logically-speaking - is it him or is it her? A financial poa could be done more easily from afar - whereas a health one (that could so easily turn into being a carer) needs someone nearer. In that case = your son.

Looks like it would be a good idea (with all three of you meeting up if possible) to have the daughter with the financial poa and the son with the health poa. He's the one that is nearer after all.

One does see male carers and one of my friends is in that position and cue for him often turning up my doorstep for sympathy and a drink. But we can all see that he lives a lot nearer to the parents than his sister does - and so him it is - ie a logical decision to make. We can all see it's usually women that end up in that position and male "children" get off scott-free.

Your son is doing a noticeable amount at the moment as can be seen....but yep...have a think (and a consultation) re whether it's more appropriate for the nearer child (yep the man) to be the one that has that health poa.

I'd be willing to bet that the way she's looking at it is "Health poa = set up to be a carer....agh the woman again" and needs reassurance on that.

Certainly any "official" help you get are likely to look to the female child too - rather than a male child - even if that's not what you personally are thinking. I've experienced that myself when it came to my mother - my former brother is 4 people worth (him/his wife/two adult children) and lives a sight nearer our old parents house and they have cars. I am 1 person/live much further away/don't have a car and yet Social Services were looking to me for carer type stuff and not the logical household out of the two of us and cue for blazing row and pointing out the logical situation (rather than their automatic assumption situation).

Many years back a work colleague of mine asked about my family circumstances and I told her and she said "I used to work for social services and I know how they think/act - and they go for female 'children' and not male 'children' and your daughter probably knows they still do that (even though it's the 2020s now).

Society is still very sexist - and that's probably the reason for this.

When my dad had a fall just before last Christmas, he also developed an infection, the Doctors/consultants saw his confusion as some form of dementia etc.

They were adamant he went into care from hospital(he lived quite comfortably in sheltered accommodation)

Had we not! had POA I think we would have had a fight on our hands. So went back to his flat and we had carers and at least he was happy being back in his little flat with his surroundings.

I am so so glad we had POA

My dad did go to sleep in April in his own bed in his own surroundings.

I have just gone 70 and yes I must! sort my own finances/health plans out. I didn't feel old until my dad died(my mum died 5 yrs ago) but of course when your parents have gone, you are on the outside of that circle of life and it shocks you.



My dad did go for his long sleep in April

Will is done and so are insurance policies. Grave sorted. That was very important to me. Finance poa done in ds name because he lives near and comes here every day. Dd said she would do poas four years ago, fell out with me when I got ds to do finance one and asked her to health one. Eventually over two years ago she agreed, said she’d sort it but still hasn’t so I haven’t got a health one. I don’t know what to do. She lives four hours drive away, I see her a handful of times a year. Ds knows more about health issues and does hospice and hospital stuff without a grumble. If he has the health one too she’ll kick off again. Truly don’t know what to do.

Romola

After DH died, I asked the solicitor if I needed a new will. DS and DiLhave no children (by choice) while DD and SiL have two. I said I was thinking of leaving one-third to each AC and one-third to the GC.
"Do you want your son to think you loved him less because he didn't have children?" asked the solicitor.
I left my will as before, half each to the AC. What I do with spare cash in the mean time is another matter.

I didn't even realise there'd be solicitors with the wisdom/concern to say that. Very pleased to hear that there are. That solicitor is SO right - because that is exactly how it is perceived by any adult offspring that have been on the receiving end of that. How very sensible of him/her to say that.

I've no idea whether my dead parents solicitor said something like that to them when my mother decided to change their will - but I did detect that the solicitor I had to talk to there was being particularly sympathetic when I had to talk to them on the phone (not just a professional "sympathy appearance") and she knew I'd be breaking off contact with my former brother and his family the second the 25% inheritance I got (compared to their 75% inheritance between them) was there safely in my bank and I had already drafted out the email to send him breaking it off. She did the best she could for me in those circumstances and hurried that 25% through (as she knew I was concerned in case former brother found a way to steal even more from me) and I really appreciated her over-and-above level of kindness to me from having just had such a "hard kick". Quite obviously - she'd "seen it all before" about that sort of thing happening - and she obviously understood how things would go from there on in (ie I'd kick him out of my life as fast as I possibly could).

Adult children do assume that things will be left equally between them (in my case I'd been told they had been!!!!) - and it wasnt a surprise she'd favourited that former brother of mine in the event or pushed my father into going along with her and agreeing (even though former brother and myself had always been told it would be 50/50). I sorta knew our mother wanted an excuse to "favourite" him and would find a way/excuse if she could to be unfair.

But the thing I've noticed with a very good friend of mine - I went out with one of her sons years back (ie a toyboy you could say) is she's told me that it will be exactly 50/50 between my ex-boyfriend and his brother (even though ex has two children from a subsequent marriage and his brother has four). But nope - every penny is going scrupulously between my ex and his brother 50/50 and I know she's basically doing it because the two of them do get on very well (because they've always had exactly equal treatment) and she wants them to continue getting on very well. I think she's being very wise about that.

SaraC

I admit I haven’t read through all the entries for this post but would suggest that attending a Death Cafe (…there’s bound to be one in your area…) might be helpful for quite a few of you. It’s a really good way of normalising discussions around death and dying (and, interestingly, life and living) and can also be quite good fun!

Death Cafes are probably a good idea indeed - but there's not "bound to be one in your area". I've never heard of one for miles around - still less in the town I live in now.

I think things may vary rather dependant on what part of the country one lives in in approach generally. I'm in West Wales - where one of the downsides is it's so family-oriented - and that's difficult for someone from a "singles-oriented or everyone oriented" type area. What I see round here is older people having families and/or a Welsh chapel - either of which look out for them from what I can make out. But if you're a "singles" person and not chapel = there's nothing.

Right now - an immediate neighbour is clearly dying I can see (not expressing sympathies - because she's a right nuisance of a person by temperament) and I can see this family/that family/t'other family coming and going like no-ones business. A previous (nicer) neighbour had her old chapel people coming and going like no-one's person when she was clearly "not long for this world". That's how it operates here.

So - yep....in the small sort of place where things were chapel and family in the past and are still very much that way for the approx 50% that are Welsh and the 40% English, 10% other nationality that I would say there is approx = we've brought in our English ideas of interest groups, etc = but not that one.

If you have no Children or relatives you can still get a LPA for just yourself through your Solicitor who can act as your Attorney.

Worth the money and it helps if your Will has also been done by the same Solicitor.

They know you and makes the POA easier to apply for.

Also helpful if you get a prepaid funeral plan in place which be mentioned in your Will and LOA.

A.lot to do but really worth your peace of mind.

Have a Good Day.

👍

My DH passed away 3 years ago, age 89. At the time we had wills and POA in place, both done by the same solicitor 10 yrs previous.
I set about cancelling his and redoing my own. It turns out the original POA had never been registered! Consequently for 10 years we had wrongly assumed all was sorted.
It is now !
My son died died during Covjd Lockdown. No other children so our grandson and niece are well informed where everything is..I've
dared them to put me in a care home..ive seen too much of poor care behind the scenes .
I'm very late 80s so feel ive done all I can to make as little worry for anyone to deal with.
My direct Cremation is paid for. Once the will is sorted, property sold they will no doubt spend it faster than we saved it.

Allalongagatha

I am a strong believer that everyone should have a health POA whatever their age. Is is easy to do and fairly cheap.

My mother gave me financial control, but refused the health element. In the end, she had a simple UTI that affected her mental capacity, and they would not give her anti-biotics because she had cancer, so she died in a distressingly poor state, over which I had not control. I have a drafted POA which I will put in place if I outlive DH

After DH died, I asked the solicitor if I needed a new will. DS and DiLhave no children (by choice) while DD and SiL have two. I said I was thinking of leaving one-third to each AC and one-third to the GC.
"Do you want your son to think you loved him less because he didn't have children?" asked the solicitor.
I left my will as before, half each to the AC. What I do with spare cash in the mean time is another matter.

In answer to the OP - yes and no.

Will and PoA’s sorted (Solicitor charged £900 for the PoAs). Both DDs know my personal wishes and where to scatter my ashes. They know my Financial Advisor, and where my savings are - but they have no idea how much (or little) my pension income is, or how much I have in savings.

I admit I haven’t read through all the entries for this post but would suggest that attending a Death Cafe (…there’s bound to be one in your area…) might be helpful for quite a few of you. It’s a really good way of normalising discussions around death and dying (and, interestingly, life and living) and can also be quite good fun!

I like to be organised, but as I have no relatives and no-one willing to act as Power of Attorney, I feel somewhat stuck. Glad though that the majority seem to be sorting themselves out.

I’m tired out reading all this!! Let us have some peace!