Four more horses die in the name of ‘sport’

If racing was banned overnight, which of course won’t happen because it’s worth far too much to the economy, but if it were, then I would expect the industry to take responsibility for the horses it has brought into existence.

Another incomplete answer. Do you think owners would be compelled by law to maintain horses for the following 10 years or more no matter the financial cost? Surely you can admit that ‘taking responsibility’ would mean the vast majority of horses would be killed? And maybe that is an acceptable price for you to get racing banned.

MayBee70 may I correct you one small point, please. To race in the UK a horse must be a full TB so French horses like Kauto Star and Galopin de Champs are full TB, although I agree that there are some super French horses bred for other disciplines that are not TBs eg Selle Francais

Winning horses are dope tested. There are also spot checks on horses pre and post race. Sometimes a horse will fail the test because it had been given prescription medicine too close to a race. There is one famous case in which a horse failed a test because it had eaten a Mars bar. And another horse was found to produce something performance enhancing. If a horse runs unexpectedly badly in a race it will be tested and there is an enquiry. If racing did end I suppose thoroughbreds would still be bred but far more indiscriminately. The thoroughbred as it is now have evolved over centuries of careful breeding. Many flat horses tend to come from Ireland but the best NH horses often come from France these days. They are much more careful about the mares they breed from and they aren’t necessarily full thoroughbreds. Ever since people started riding horses their owners have raced them against each other; competition is in our blood I guess.i accept that the problem in racing is due to running and jumping at speed. But I have to say I love the sight of a thoroughbred jumping a fence; I love seeing them walking round a parade ring and the smell of hoof oil. When famous horses are taken back to the racetrack for people to see them they get so excited and the years fall away from them. I used to watch racing on tv with my dad when I was a child. When he died it rekindled my love for the sport; I felt he was still with me in some way. When my marriage ended I used to racing on my own, but never felt alone; the racetrack is the only place where I’ve ever felt I belonged. I totally understand why people feel it should be banned. However, what I don’t like is misinformation about the sport, often perpetrated by the very newspapers that get extra customers by offering free bets and doing sweepstakes. They’ll do one for the National and then really hope that something bad happens so they can run a story about it. A lot of trainers these days are women who run quite small yards with a lot of success. There are more and more women jockeys, who I feel ride the horses sympathetically. Equestrian sport is the only one in which men and women compete equally ( except in France where women jockeys get a weight allowance). One trainer years ago was nerve blocking his horses and running them. When it was discovered he was banned for life and completely ostracised. It wouldn’t happen now, thankfully.

It isn’t meant to shut down reasoned, educated discussion.

It’s origin was in my frustration at the unrealistic visions of many posters that a ban would result in racehorses turned out and running free in green fields, to live out their natural lives.

Which in such circumstances would be short, disease ridden, malnourished and - although none of the visionaries will admit it- cruel.

None of them responded to posts explaining that with an admission of “I got that wrong. Clearly I know nothing about caring for a horse.”

A couple of posters even said they were proud to be ignorant.

So if that reality wasn’t possible I thought I would challenge them with another. That hasn’t worked either.

People prefer their fantasies.

"Hundreds of racehorses who are not good enough are slaughtered every week in the UK."
Actually that's just not true, hundreds are not slaughtered on a weekly basis. There's 14k in training and if a hundred were slaughtered each week that would by over 5K a year. There has been a decline in the numbers of foals born each year with 4.015 being born in 2025. This is due to drop to just over 3,000 in 2026 because the cost of breeding a foal is now higher than the value of a live foal.

"What I would like to see is massive changes to the industry with far fewer horses bred and greater traceability and accountability within the industry"
Every foal has to be registered with Weatherby's within 30 days of birth and there is very high traceability as no horse can be slaughtered, sold or raced without being registered and having a passport. It is illegal for any horse not to be passported, the passport is kept on the premises of where the horse is stabled and it also travels with the horse. When it receives treatment from the vet, eg receives a flu injection as required by racing authorities if it is to race, it is put in the passport.
There have been numerous changes to races over the past few years.In National Hunt racing, fences have been lowered, the distance from the start to the first fence is calculated so that horses don't travel too fast, the number of starters has been changed. Horses are vetted before and after races, the racing whip design is significantly different so that it makes a noise instead of inflicting pain and the number of times the jockey can use it and how they can use it ie on the hindquarters not the flank etc is now regulated and an offending jockey will get a ban.
I don't support flat racing and would never go to a meeting. IMO there are serious issues around the age that horses start their training ie before they have skeletal maturity, I think this is a real issue for the fusing of bones in the vertebral column and although flat race jockeys are very light I don't think horses should carry a rider until it is stronger. I would like to see horses entering racing later in life and would certainly campaign for that rather than a complete ban.

nightowl

Apologies, I posted hastily whilst doing something else. If racing was banned overnight, which of course won’t happen because it’s worth far too much to the economy, but if it were, then I would expect the industry to take responsibility for the horses it has brought into existence.

Thousands of horses are killed every year in racing - how can this be allowed to continue. It seems as if an annual cull is happening anyway.

I don’t think racing will die out or be phased out gradually all by itself, there would have to be legislation to force it and again, there’s no will for this to happen.

Perhaps the best we can hope for (and I don’t think this is likely either) would be changes to the breeding, training and keeping of racehorses so their welfare can be put first. Far fewer foals bred, breeding stock to be restricted so that only sound horses are used, less inbreeding, no horse to go into training before the age of four, species appropriate husbandry to include full turnout and less stabling, a more natural diet, adaptations to courses including fences and surfaces to reduce risks, and lots more. I’m so tired of the often quoted ‘the horses live like kings’ when what they are crying out for is to live like horses.

So I’m sorry if you think I’m sidestepping Lathyrus but I don’t think the issue only comes down to your one question. It’s a question that shuts down discussion or criticism of the industry and business carries on as usual.

Your figures are incorrect nightowl 1,000’s of horses are not killed each year in racing

2024 there were 200-215 deaths at race meetings, (usually broken legs or heart attacks) and an additional 570+ off course deaths.

Apologies, I posted hastily whilst doing something else. If racing was banned overnight, which of course won’t happen because it’s worth far too much to the economy, but if it were, then I would expect the industry to take responsibility for the horses it has brought into existence.

Thousands of horses are killed every year in racing - how can this be allowed to continue. It seems as if an annual cull is happening anyway.

I don’t think racing will die out or be phased out gradually all by itself, there would have to be legislation to force it and again, there’s no will for this to happen.

Perhaps the best we can hope for (and I don’t think this is likely either) would be changes to the breeding, training and keeping of racehorses so their welfare can be put first. Far fewer foals bred, breeding stock to be restricted so that only sound horses are used, less inbreeding, no horse to go into training before the age of four, species appropriate husbandry to include full turnout and less stabling, a more natural diet, adaptations to courses including fences and surfaces to reduce risks, and lots more. I’m so tired of the often quoted ‘the horses live like kings’ when what they are crying out for is to live like horses.

So I’m sorry if you think I’m sidestepping Lathyrus but I don’t think the issue only comes down to your one question. It’s a question that shuts down discussion or criticism of the industry and business carries on as usual.

while incidents still occur—frequently caused by inadequate withdrawal times for medications—large-scale, systemic doping scandals are considered rare in British professional racing compared to international standards

No - you haven’t read the post correctly. I suggested educating yourselves by visiting the Annual Open Day at Lambourn where many racehorse yards are open and information and views given - not a racecourse! There is no hope of educating some….

So, a Poster upthread, not rude at all, suggested we should 'educate' ourselves by visiting a specific racecourse, but, I assume, not the 'seedy' one also mentioned upthread.
But, perhaps there is an easier way to find out if horse racing is in fact the ethical paradise, as has been suggested.
Why not ask Google?

'Is there still a doping problem in the UK horse racing industry?'

What will the answer be?

Ooops I hadn't refreshed the page before posting.

Oh for goodness' sake can somebody answer Lathyrus's question honestly.
nightowl No Lathyrus I don’t accept there’ll have to be a mass culling of horses because we both know racing is not going to be banned. the question is a theoretical one, if racing was to be banned do you acknowledge and accept there would of necessity be a mass culling? It really is simple.

“I do believe that culling is the most ethical policy”

To be honest Caleb, I’m not quite sure what you’re saying ie

The current culling of retired racehorses is the most ethical

or

the mass cull consequent upon a ban is the most ethical.

If it’s the latter I salute you for your ability to look facts in the face and accept the consequences of an action.

It’s quite rare.👏👏

nightowl

No Lathyrus I don’t accept there’ll have to be a mass culling of horses because we both know racing is not going to be banned. As I said, there’s no will to ban it so it’s a false (I would say disingenuous) argument. What I would like to see is massive changes to the industry with far fewer horses bred and greater traceability and accountability within the industry, (although that would cost) as I’ve already said in an earlier post.

I admit I’d be happy to see the so called sport end - but I’d settle for it dying out gradually as we learn to treat our fellow animals better.

Dying out gradually…..

Sidestep

horse racing is not going to be banned

Sidestep.

Lathyrus3

Well I suppose that leads me back Caleo, to the point I’ve been making and that the “Ban” posters keep sidestepping.

Are you and they prepared to acknowledge the massive cull that will have to take place with a ban.

That’s not an argument against a ban it’s a frustration that they won’t acknowledge it and still cling to a vision of all the horses being accommodated in green fields to live out their long lives.

Or a gradual phasing out.
One poster suggested no more foals. That would mean the immediate cull of most brood mares, who would then be a financial liability without any return. An honest post would be “Yes, I know that will happen but I believe it would be worth it”. I’m not sure whether the sidestepping is for the benefit of others or whether the posters themselves find it impossible to acknowledge what a ban will mean and tell themselves comforting fantasies.

What I’ve asked for is a simple affirmation of their policy, that they believe a massive but relatively short term cull of thousands is better than a continuance of horse

An honest facing of reality. Too much?

Undoubtedly you and foxie make a good point.

For instance. huntsmen are faced with the same ethical problem regarding the numbers of foxhounds surplus to requirements. Foxhounds are harder than greyhounds to rehabilitate.

I do believe that culling is the most ethical policy in view of the fact that there are otherwise surplus animals. Despite foxie's protestations there are always fewer individuals who can rehome a horse compared with the numbers who can rehome a dog or a cat.

Horse racing is basically thrilling for riders and spectators, and the display of horsemanship skills is amazing. However horse racing has become commercialised to such an extent that I guess that were racing to be purged of commercial elements it could not survive as a viable spectator sport.

No Lathyrus I don’t accept there’ll have to be a mass culling of horses because we both know racing is not going to be banned. As I said, there’s no will to ban it so it’s a false (I would say disingenuous) argument. What I would like to see is massive changes to the industry with far fewer horses bred and greater traceability and accountability within the industry, (although that would cost) as I’ve already said in an earlier post.

I admit I’d be happy to see the so called sport end - but I’d settle for it dying out gradually as we learn to treat our fellow animals better.

As well as culling upwards of 30,000 horses , if racing is banned an estimated 85,000 people would lose their jobs.

With regards to fox hunting, since the ban there's been a noticeable decline in the number of hunts. I live on the boundary of two popular hunts and both are in decline, another local hunt has merged with one further away but is struggling as riders don't want to travel their horses miles into unfamiliar country to follow a trail. Several of my local farmers no longer permit the hunt use their land because it is too wet. Hunting is dying a natural death, interestingly I used to see foxes regularly in the past but in the last few years they are a rarity. I suspect they now find living in the town provides them with an easy and regular food supply.

So nightowl , do you accept that there will have to be a mass cull of existing racehorses?

No sidestepping. I’ve said clearly that’s not an argument against a ban.

I’m just asking for an honest acceptance that a ban will result in a mass cull and that those in favour if a ban acknowledge that will happen.

So can you give an honest answer

“ I believe it is better to have a mass cull than all whose racing to continue”.

Just a “Yes” will do.

It sounds a lot like the argument in favour of fox hunting - because to ban it would result in difficult decisions having to be made about the animals already in existence - we should just carry on doing what we've always done.

Hundreds of racehorses who are not good enough are slaughtered every week in the UK. Sometimes human beings just have to face up to the fact that what they are doing, and might have been doing since time immemorial - is wrong and needs to change. Thats how we evolve and hopefully improve as a species. If the will is there, a way can be found. The will isn't there.

Well I suppose that leads me back Caleo, to the point I’ve been making and that the “Ban” posters keep sidestepping.

Are you and they prepared to acknowledge the massive cull that will have to take place with a ban.

That’s not an argument against a ban it’s a frustration that they won’t acknowledge it and still cling to a vision of all the horses being accommodated in green fields to live out their long lives.

Or a gradual phasing out.
One poster suggested no more foals. That would mean the immediate cull of most brood mares, who would then be a financial liability without any return. An honest post would be “Yes, I know that will happen but I believe it would be worth it”. I’m not sure whether the sidestepping is for the benefit of others or whether the posters themselves find it impossible to acknowledge what a ban will mean and tell themselves comforting fantasies.

What I’ve asked for is a simple affirmation of their policy, that they believe a massive but relatively short term cull of thousands is better than a continuance of horse

An honest facing of reality. Too much?

Caleo

My reply was for Avalon I think. However foxie should accept that there are very persons who can afford to keep a retired race horse and retrain it for a new career in eventing, hacking, or dressage. She and her rich friends are a small minority,

Actually I think you may have scored the own goal as you have shown that you think there are few people who can afford to take on a race horse, so what on earth would you do with the 14,000 currently in racing, the stallions and broodmares in the bloodstock industry and the young stock that are too young to go into training?

My friends who retrain tbs do it as their living, what would
Caleosuggest they do instead? What would you do with the yards they have invested in?
Caleo I do have "rich friends" who can well afford an expensive hobby, I also have friends who make considerable sacrifices in order to own and keep their horse. Horse ownership is for many people a way of life rather than a hobby and I feel very privileged to have had horses in my life even if I was quite old before I was able to afford one.

"The UK equine industry is valued at
approximately £5 billion annually to the British economy. With around 1 million horses and over 1.8 million riders, the sector is a significant rural employer, supported by a widespread network of equestrian businesses, breeding, and competitive sports." AI generated

Caleo

My reply was for Avalon I think. However foxie should accept that there are very persons who can afford to keep a retired race horse and retrain it for a new career in eventing, hacking, or dressage. She and her rich friends are a small minority,

A member of our family has a race horse which did not make the grade - she is not rich as you call it but does have a well-paid job. They have won many dressage competitions together. The horse, and others where she is stabled, are loved ad well cared for.

Thanks GrannyGravy for pointing out the lengths we go to be involved with ponies and horses. My childminder looked after my girls from age 2 to 11. The girls are z40 and 41 now and still run to hug auntie Janet if we bump into each other. I chose her because she had three dogs and rode herself. Much like myself. Our girls went on to riding school and local gymkhanas. We were far from comfortably off in those days.
Auntie j is seventy and still competing locally.

Another friend had been a single mum on benefits. She trained and fostered for forty years. She was camping with her brood, yiung pony for sale at the farm, almost free - she bought it and her crew joined us at local gymkhanas. She rescued German shepherds as well

My experience has been dogs horses and children gain a lot from each other. No I know not horse racing but significant involvement in the horsey world

Caleo

My reply was for Avalon I think. However foxie should accept that there are very persons who can afford to keep a retired race horse and retrain it for a new career in eventing, hacking, or dressage. She and her rich friends are a small minority,

It’s a fallacy that all horse owners are rich

There were several at our yard where the mum took cleaning jobs to pay for their daughters ponies and then horses as they grew.

Often the girls worked in the yard for reduced livery costs, and their mounts were used in the riding school, this is called working livery

My reply was for Avalon I think. However foxie should accept that there are very persons who can afford to keep a retired race horse and retrain it for a new career in eventing, hacking, or dressage. She and her rich friends are a small minority,