A huge march against the Far Right

Women were stuck in menial jobs.
Not necessarily.
It depends what is meant by menial.
Lowly, boring, manual labour.

Even though my parents left school at 14, they managed to achieve far better jobs than menial in the 1920s and 1930s.

Higher education now is a degree but years ago there were far more opportunities for education via different routes.

Women could not continue with better paid, non manual jobs when they had children though. My mum was a grammar school girl, and worked in the Inland Revenue. She had no option but to leave when she was pregnant with me in the late 1950s

LemonJam

Meandrogrog Fri 03-Apr-26 21:27:49: "Ilovecheese
It doesn't seem to be at all clear what he meant. People seem to be putting their own interpretations on the meaning".

Meandrogog: 'It is incredibly clear just what he meant'.

What is incredibly clear to you Meandrogog? Alec Penstone said nothing about Clapham riots as you exampled.

Google the more moderate article "A British WW11 Veteran's Uncomfortable Question" on miltary.com.

Penstone actually said " I can see in my mind's eye those rows and rows of white stones and all the hundreds of my friends who gave their lives. For what? The country of today? No, I'm sorry, but the sacrifice wasn't worth the result that it is now". Penstone added that what they fought for was freedom and yet now "it's darn sight worse than what I fought for".

WW11 was the war against the rise of the far right nationalism of Adolph Hitler. Hitler was motivated by a fanatical interconnected set of ideological beliefs primarily rooted in extreme racial ideology, desire for territorial expansion and virulent anti semitism. Penstone was fighting to overcome that far right ideology becoming a reality.

Penstone's remarks and question triggered a wave of reaction across the UK as viewers and commentators grappled what his words reveal about veteran sympathy, national identity and collective memory. The DM, GB News and Telegraph et all of course formed views based on their right? far right wing reporting bias, hence why I suggested reading a more moderate, none political article. Gransnet posters will interpret Penstone's words; some may seek to be impartial and some may more easily jump into interpretations shaped by their political bias. However it cant be argued factually what Penstone was fighting for- freedom from far right wing ideology, nationalism, fascism and anti semitism.

What was your perception of Penstone's words specifically Menadrogog as you claim 'It is incredibly clear just what he meant' but you have not yet explained what his words specifically meant to you.

You are twisting my words, and therefore anything I post will likewise have the same treatment.

I know Alec Penstone did not say anything about the Clapham riots. I know exactly what he said as I listened to the interview.

I was asked what was wrong with the UK and I said its difficult to know where to start and gave that as an example, it was nothing to do with the veteran.

Please stop twisting my words and trying to attack me. It comes across very clearly that is what you are trying to do, not that I give a flying f…..

Allira

^Women were stuck in menial jobs.^
Not necessarily.
It depends what is meant by menial.
Lowly, boring, manual labour.

Even though my parents left school at 14, they managed to achieve far better jobs than menial in the 1920s and 1930s.

Higher education now is a degree but years ago there were far more opportunities for education via different routes.

No, it's not. Higher education is post A level, which is what I meant - and why I chose the words.

Meandrogrog

LemonJam

Meandrogrog Fri 03-Apr-26 21:27:49: "Ilovecheese
It doesn't seem to be at all clear what he meant. People seem to be putting their own interpretations on the meaning".

Meandrogog: 'It is incredibly clear just what he meant'.

What is incredibly clear to you Meandrogog? Alec Penstone said nothing about Clapham riots as you exampled.

Google the more moderate article "A British WW11 Veteran's Uncomfortable Question" on miltary.com.

Penstone actually said " I can see in my mind's eye those rows and rows of white stones and all the hundreds of my friends who gave their lives. For what? The country of today? No, I'm sorry, but the sacrifice wasn't worth the result that it is now". Penstone added that what they fought for was freedom and yet now "it's darn sight worse than what I fought for".

WW11 was the war against the rise of the far right nationalism of Adolph Hitler. Hitler was motivated by a fanatical interconnected set of ideological beliefs primarily rooted in extreme racial ideology, desire for territorial expansion and virulent anti semitism. Penstone was fighting to overcome that far right ideology becoming a reality.

Penstone's remarks and question triggered a wave of reaction across the UK as viewers and commentators grappled what his words reveal about veteran sympathy, national identity and collective memory. The DM, GB News and Telegraph et all of course formed views based on their right? far right wing reporting bias, hence why I suggested reading a more moderate, none political article. Gransnet posters will interpret Penstone's words; some may seek to be impartial and some may more easily jump into interpretations shaped by their political bias. However it cant be argued factually what Penstone was fighting for- freedom from far right wing ideology, nationalism, fascism and anti semitism.

What was your perception of Penstone's words specifically Menadrogog as you claim 'It is incredibly clear just what he meant' but you have not yet explained what his words specifically meant to you.

You are twisting my words, and therefore anything I post will likewise have the same treatment.

I know Alec Penstone did not say anything about the Clapham riots. I know exactly what he said as I listened to the interview.

I was asked what was wrong with the UK and I said its difficult to know where to start and gave that as an example, it was nothing to do with the veteran.

Please stop twisting my words and trying to attack me. It comes across very clearly that is what you are trying to do, not that I give a flying f…..

Nobody has twisted your words!!

We can all read what you wrote: 'It is incredibly clear just what he meant'.

Unfortunately, it isn't "incredibly clear" to many of us. As you do appear to understand, we've asked you to explain, but unfortunately you don't appear to want to explain.

I did a bit more digging on this. All this took place last November so there’s plenty of commentary. After the GMB segment, Penstone gave an interview to the DM along with other veterans.

He would not be drawn into commenting on hot-button topics except for his sense of being deeply unimpressed by all modern politicians.

He said:

"There are too many people with their fingers in the till. Faith in our country was the best thing but nowadays there's too many people that just want their own little corner and bugger everybody else."

Asked of his view of wartime prime minister Winston Churchill and how he thinks today's politicians match up to him, Alec says: 'I admired him. He was a leader. And he made sure what needed to be done was done.'

“There is no comparison whatsoever to the modern leaders. In this world today it is every man for himself.”

“I've got no feelings for any of them.”

Seems to me he was talking about personal greed and dishonesty, lack of care for one another, lack of community spirit, socialism even, and the loss of statesmanship that, arguably, Britain once had.

I would argue that having faith in the country means not constantly running it down, nor constantly saying that Britain is Broken (which it isn't) and using it as a cheap slogan to stoke division. Who does that?

It would be interesting if there was a demonstration against the far left who are every bit as bad and worse than the far right. They are so full of themselves they really push people across to the perceived right.

Who do you understand is representing the far left in the UK, nanna? What are their policies, and how (specifically) are they as bad as the far right?

Speaking as a resident of the UK, I have no idea who you are talking about, so am genuinely interested to know.

nanna8

It would be interesting if there was a demonstration against the far left who are every bit as bad and worse than the far right. They are so full of themselves they really push people across to the perceived right.

Do you have any examples of people being ful of themselves and this encouraging a shift to the right please?

Penstonian views judge the present against an idealised expectation. Penstone is comparing today’s UK to what he hoped it would become after the sacrifices of war. But those expectations are often shaped by emotion rather than realistic historical outcomes. No country emerges from war into a perfect or permanently “worthy” state, societies continue to evolve, struggle, and disagree.

They also assume sacrifice must produce a perfect result. The quote implies: if the country isn’t “good enough” now, the sacrifice wasn’t worth it. That’s a very high, and arguably impossible, standard. Many would argue that those lives were given for:

Freedom from authoritarian rule
The survival of democratic institutions
The protection of future generations from greater harm

Even if modern Britain has flaws, those outcomes still largely exist today.

Those views overlooks what was achieved. After World War II, the UK saw major developments such as:

Expansion of democracy and civil rights
Creation of institutions like the welfare state
Long periods without large-scale war on its own soil

From this perspective, the sacrifices did lead to meaningful, lasting benefits even if the country isn’t perfect now.

This perspective treats “the country of today” as a single, fixed thing. Modern Britain is complex and diverse. Different people experience it very differently. Saying it isn’t “worth it” assumes a single negative judgment, ignoring:

Improvements in living standards for many
Greater equality compared to the past
Ongoing efforts to address social problems

The declaration of such views almost certainly reflects personal grief more than objective judgment. This kind of statement is often rooted in trauma. Losing “hundreds of friends” would understandably shape a deeply emotional perspective. That doesn’t make it wrong, but it does mean it’s subjective rather than a balanced evaluation of the country.

nanna8

It would be interesting if there was a demonstration against the far left who are every bit as bad and worse than the far right. They are so full of themselves they really push people across to the perceived right.

I would agree with your first sentence although there seems little reason to think any of those as on the left are as extreme or have hope of power as the current extreme right.

What a shame you felt the need to add the second sentence.

As a woman in this country the progressives ( it is hard to see them as on the left considering their barely disguised contempt for the working class) have done more damage lately to me than the right, they cheered on men in women's spaces, they cheered on damaging medical intervention on vulnerable young people, they support the abuse of women via prostitution, I could go on.

Galaxy 👏👏👏

Totally agree with Galaxy, in fact those who would describe themselves as progressive often come across as regressive. On the contrary, state control in the hands of those who see themselves as progressive such as ex premier, Justin Trudeau, often enforce an unwavering authority that doesn't allow dissenting opinions from an enforced dogma.

The left will champion men in women's spaces if they had carte blanche to do so, that's what many of them want, the lack of the rolling out of advice as to the implementation of the court ruling around that matter, despite the constant mantra "we must obey the letter of the law" supports where their actual loyalties lie.

The desire to open up prostitution as a viable source of work, ignoring the utter exploitative nature for women and girls forced to sell themselves, endangering their lives in the process. Previously all the evidence suggested when a suburb of Leeds trialed that very thing, it hardly emancipated the trafficked and drugged working the streets, still manipulated by pimps and leaving local women and girls open to being harassed by kerb crawling punters.

Frankly I don't see them champions of women at all, In fact I think they just want dissenting women to put up and shut up!

The Greens have their own faction on the far left, as do Labour, in harbouring their anti semites, such as Tope Olawoyin a Green Councillor who put out publically that the recent Golders Green attack was quite possibly committed from people within the Jewish community. Her opinions demonstrate the desire to besmirch the Jewish community without any evidence a mindset thinly veiled and justified by their anti Israel stance that it's somehow permissible to support a strand of racism that would not be tolerated against other demographics.

I agree Galaxy

Off we go again. Describing different factions, whose views don’t accord with our own, in derogatory terms is a Gransnet obsession. The UK is a moderate country politically, there is no organised ‘far left’ or ‘far right’, because the further from the centre you get, the more splintered the views become, and the personalities involved become so passionate about their own causes that they are unable to compromise and work together.

Thank you, Casdon.

This thread is about last weekend’s Together Alliance march.

Fuel Poverty Action supported it. Mind supported it. Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice supported it. The Workers' Educational Association (WEA) supported it. The British Medical Association (BMA) supported it.

I’m just picking out a few "big" names that people will recognise but there are dozens and dozens of other supporting organisations.

So many people attempting to discredit what was done with good intention with their own agendas.

Meandrogog 20.59:

I directly quoted your words Meandrogog- no need to be derogatory towards me either for posing a question- you have chosen not to answer and that's ok. I echo twaddle's post to you at 22.27:

"Nobody has twisted your words!!

We can all read what you wrote: 'It is incredibly clear just what he meant'.

Unfortunately, it isn't "incredibly clear" to many of us. As you do appear to understand, we've asked you to explain, but unfortunately you don't appear to want to explain.

Casdon

Off we go again. Describing different factions, whose views don’t accord with our own, in derogatory terms is a Gransnet obsession. The UK is a moderate country politically, there is no organised ‘far left’ or ‘far right’, because the further from the centre you get, the more splintered the views become, and the personalities involved become so passionate about their own causes that they are unable to compromise and work together.

I like this perspective a lot; it feels grounded in how things actually work rather than how they’re often portrayed. Most people aren’t living at the extremes, and it shows in how politics here tends to settle around the middle. That instinct toward moderation and compromise is probably one of the reasons things remain relatively stable, even when debates get heated.

nanna8

It would be interesting if there was a demonstration against the far left who are every bit as bad and worse than the far right. They are so full of themselves they really push people across to the perceived right.

I really can't stand some of the far left either. Oh, immigrants welcome, stop immigration controls, so long as the immigrants are kept well away from their middle class neighbourhoods. Also they seem to have a barely concealed hatred of the working class., whom they often regard as thick, bigoted and supposedly brainwashed by papers like The Sun. In my experience, the most left wing people are mostly the most middle class.

It isn't derogatory to disagree, I view many on the march as regressive and doing things that actually I would class as authoritarian and very reminiscint of the 'far right'. They don't represent my values that's all.

I can also spell reminiscent.

Casdon

Off we go again. Describing different factions, whose views don’t accord with our own, in derogatory terms is a Gransnet obsession. The UK is a moderate country politically, there is no organised ‘far left’ or ‘far right’, because the further from the centre you get, the more splintered the views become, and the personalities involved become so passionate about their own causes that they are unable to compromise and work together.

That is how I see it. I have no idea who the 'far left' are. There is an older chap who used to sell the Socialist Worker newspaper (does that still exist?) on my High Street at weekends, but now contents himself with waving the odd banner with slogans about workers' rights. Does he count?

There's Corbyn, who isn't 'far left' and is nowhere near power. Who else? Union leaders are thinner on the ground and get much less air time than they used to.

I have never seen identity politics as having a left/right split, although it's true that authoritarianism often disguises itself as 'being kind'. Some politicians are better at playing the media than others, and know what to say to whom, but on the whole there is little to choose between the main parties when it comes to gender politics, and none of them do much for the working class. That would mean increasing wages and/or lowering rents, and those things would alienate people who make money from low wages and high rents, so is unlikely to happen any time soon. I think the current government is trying to move in that direction, but there have been so many other things to deal with that progress has been slow.

Either way, there is no far left, and as you say, Casdon so far at least, the far right has always gone the way of the People's Front of Judea (or was it the Judea Popular Front?). Long may that continue.

Cumbrianmale56 13.32: "I really can't stand some of the far left either. Oh, immigrants welcome, stop immigration controls, so long as the immigrants are kept well away from their middle class neighbourhoods. Also they seem to have a barely concealed hatred of the working class., whom they often regard as thick, bigoted and supposedly brainwashed by papers like The Sun. In my experience, the most left wing people are mostly the most middle class".

I'm not far left, not far right- centrist but leaning a bit more towards left than right. I do have an intense dislike of far right ideology as represented by Reform UK just as you have an intense dislike of the 'far left' whatever the far left is in UK politics to you. But then you frame political beliefs as class driven, in a derogatory way which I think is somewhat simplistic.

I live in a house, in what could reasonably be described as a "middle class neighbourhood" and have immigrant neighbours. I don't have a problem with having immigrant families in my neighbourhood- why would I? I don't have a "barely concealed hatred" for "the working class" either- good grief. My parents and grand parents were very poor and working class. I was fortunate enough to gravitate towards a professional job and home ownership in more socially mobile times but my roots are not forgotten.

I certainly don't regard the working class as all 'thick' or 'bigoted', neither of which are exclusive to the working classes. All socio economic groups in the UK contain those that are bigoted and/or uninformed/unaware including the ruling classes and royalty.

Political Leaning and Bias in the UK Media bias is definitely a thing though and not restricted solely to the working classes and imho you are wrong to dismiss. It is up to individuals to be aware of bias, factor it in or go along blindly with opinion pieces they read in the media- their choice.

The DM, The Express, The Sun and the Telegraph are widely recognised as having right wing, pro Conservative leanings. The Guardian and the Mirror recognised as more left wing leaning. The Independent generally viewed as broadly centrist.

UK Media outlets have trust and reliability and performance metrics- it is a thing Cumbrianmale56, like it or not. A 2026 report by The Centre for Media Monitoring (CfMM) found nearly half of all British medial coverage about Muslims in 2025 contained a "high degree of bias" and the worst offenders were GB news, TalkTV and The Spectator. The BBC, The Guardian and ITV were noted as having lower rates of bias compared to their peers. Other methodological sources include Ofcom, YouGov, Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism.

Have a look at mediabiasfactcheck.com rates each of the media outlets individually for factual reporting etc- eye opening. Right and (as measured) extreme right wing media outlets perform much lower on factual and bias metrics when compared to centrist BBC and Guardian (slight left leaning) which both perform much better. You just cant deny that there are those reading articles in some newspapers believing them to be factual when that is often not the case.

The whole thing I hear about right wing media is exaggerated. Yes there is The Sun, the Daily Express, Daily Mail and Daily Telegraph that openly support the Conservatives or Reform, but there are alternatives. Also broadcast media, except GB News, is impartial.